Where is the natural Man a child?

Again, Children are not Men, so using any referance that depicts man and men are not sufficently speaking of children and babies. As the audiance of any scriptural referance tends to be an adult or adulesant. One could argue that any broad term refering to man does not automatically infer the same about children.

It has been revealed unto us in our day that the age of accountability is usually about 8 years old. this is when children can take responcibility for their actions. Before they are old enough to make a big dicision as to accept Baptism they have no need for it, for God will be the judge and it is through his Prophet that he made this plain.

God bless,
-D

Thank you, Ringer, for finding biblical evidence that are are sinful by nature. The Book of Mormon adds to that sentiment, “The natural man is an enemy to God” (Mosiah 3:19). The scripture poignantly continues, and puts this discussion back on track. ” . . .unless he becomes as a little child, full of grace and truth.”

We all agree that our nature is to sin. That is why I agree with PP, all kids–including Rusty’s adorable baby boy–if left to themselves will sin and become corrupted. Naturally, we are sinful. Just look at “The Lord of the Flies.”

But we are not left to ourselves. We come into this world as a member of a family. We have parents who love us and want to teach us correct principles. They correct us when we are wrong and show how we hurt ourselves, others, and the Lord when we choose wrong. We are taught about the nature of God and are told to emulate Him. We learn catch phrases like “What would Jesus do?” to help us learn good from evil.

But as described above, we all turn to sin. We all in time fall short of the glory of God. So we all need the Savior to intercede on our behalf.

The traditional Christian view states we are sinful from birth. Regarding adults this is a non-issue because we all know we have sinned, and we all need Christ. But regarding infants who die before baptism, how do we cope with the inherent difficulty of consoling parents and their loss? I’ll summarize the viewpoints above in the following list.

Some would say the baby is damned.
Others reason that a loving God will not be so cruel and will provide a way, though we don’t know how.
Still others conclude that baptism isn’t necessary in the first place.
Mormons believe that God did reveal his will and it is not to baptize infants. Doing so is unnecessary, as “little children are alive in Christ.”

Ringer listed some passages that he interprets as original sin. I read the same passage and conclude that my nature is to choose evil so I have to try all the harder to lose my carnal self in following Christ.

So in conclusion, we all have differences of opinion. I notice that many traditional Christians following this blog find differences between the Mormon view and theirs and exploit these differences. But this is a mormon blog–a place to open your mind and see the Mormon view point. You may not agree, but you should be able to see the rationale behind the doctrine. Your arguments have only shown that Mormonism is different from the traditional view and therefore is “non-Christian” or just plain wrong.

Mormonism was founded on untraditional principles because tradition has separated mainstream christianity from God. So He set things right by re-establishing His church on the earth without all the man-made traditions that had infiltrated true doctrine.

So far I seem unable to find it.
-D

Isalm 143:2, “In Thy sight no one living is righteous,”
This one you got wrong,
“2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be ajustified.”

good luck in the future,
-D

Psalm 58:3, “The wicked are estranged from the womb. And those who speak lies go astray from birth.” Psalm 143:2, “In Thy sight no one living is righteous,” that is from conception on, in the womb, at birth, in infancy, in childhood or adulthood, no one is righteous. Proverbs 20 and verse 9, “Who can say I have cleansed my heart, I’m pure from sin?” No one. Ecclesiastes 7 and verse 20, “Indeed there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.” Jeremiah 17:9, “The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, and who can know it?” Everything in Scripture cries out about the sinfulness of man.

Jesus in Matthew 15:18 says, “The things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and out of the heart come evil thoughts and murders and adulteries and fornications and thefts and false witness and slanders. These are the things that defile a man.” It’s what comes from the inside. In Romans chapter 3, “There is none righteous, no not one.” Romans 3 goes on to describe the wretchedness of the human heart.

So, the Bible tells us that sinfulness is not a condition that comes upon people when they’re old enough to choose to do evil. It is the condition of the entire human race and every conception brings into being a sinful life. Ever since Adam and Eve everyone born has been born in a fallenness sinful state. That becomes evident as soon as any behavioral choice is made. We’re born sinners, we are also born guilty because we inherit the guilt of Adam’s sin.

And furthermore, do you know any adult that chose not to sin and therefore perpetuated some holy perfection? Do you know any adult that didn’t repeat Adam and Eve’s conscious rebellion against God? Do you know any adult that didn’t actually sin? No, the only persons who don’t actually sin are those who die in infancy and the only reason they don’t actually sin is because they die before they can manifest their sinfulness. They die before they can make a responsible moral choice to rebel against God which all of them will do if they live. Any child who lives to the point of moral responsibility, any person who gets beyond that condition where they can’t understand and they can’t convincingly grasp the truths of salvation, any child who lives pass the point of responsible moral to the point of responsible moral choice will choose to sin. We all do. The Bible is absolutely clear that all infants who survive end up wretched sinners because it’s in their nature. First Kings 8:46, “There is no man who doesn’t sin.” Psalm 51:5, “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, in sin my mother conceived me.” It doesn’t mean he was an illegitimate child, that’s not the case. But from the very conception sin was there imbedded in his nature.

Since it is true that all those that are conceived are depraved sinners, what implications does that truth of depravity have on dying children and their salvation? Well, it makes their salvation solely a matter of sovereign grace. They don’t deserve to be saved because they are guilty sinners by inheritance. If they are saved it is by the sovereign grace of God based on nothing that they can do, nothing they can achieve and nothing they can merit. The salvation of those souls then is absolutely consistent with the salvation of adults which is also based on sovereign grace apart from anything that they can do. they are saved through the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ, His death for them because He bore the wrath of God for them as for all who could and would believe. They’re saved then by grace, by sovereign grace. The only difference between their salvation and mine is faith is a part of my salvation..it’s not a part of theirs. But then again, faith isn’t something we contribute, faith is a gift from God. So they are saved by grace in sovereign election so that the work of Christ is freely applied to them. Mine is justification by faith, theirs is justification without faith because without the knowledge and ability to understanding convincingly sin and salvation, they cannot exercise that faith.

1. We are inharently Evil.

2. we are inharently Benolovent.

Theory 1 would have us either inherit the evil of our Fathers (one inturpratation of: “the sins of the father upon the heads of the children.”) or somehow as human receive – Original Sin, from the fall of Adam.
Or as human (not-devine) we are born evil

Following the Philosophy of theory 1: we need to work to put away our evil and become benolovent.(stained form the actions of our progenitors.)

Theory 2 is in following that we are benolovent at birth and either some evil corupts us (and it is up to the righteous to resist coruption) or we are given Choice to act without total restriction to evil doing.

Theory 2 applies when we see we are Created in the Image of a Benolovent God. Theory 1 applies when the image we are created in is either of some evil/wrong commited, some evil thing differant than anything holy, devine, and benolovent, Or we are created in the image of our God who is Hateful, spiteful or just Evil.

What I know of the God that I put my faith in Theory 2 is the view I adhear to and see the wonderous world a Benolovent God Created.

-D