Let’s carry on the conversation here: http://mormonconversations.com/why-did-joseph-smith-have-to-return-the-plates/

The recency of the record has little bearing on what God is capable of doing. Should he desire a path of proof, it’s quite reasonable to expect he could have found a way to preserve any record, regardless it’s age.

It seems there’s a deeper issue here though. What is it about the Book of Mormon that flies in the face of scripture (I’m presuming you mean the Bible, but correct me if I’m wrong)?

Thanks for carrying this important conversation. It’s valuable for many readers.

Joseph Smith had to return the plates because God asked him to.

I assume he was asked to return them because God’s approach is seldom one of providing irrefutable proof for “sign seekers”. He has nothing to prove, so proof is not his goal. Instead, his goal is to try our faith, to distinguish the believers.

Consequently, he continues to architect means whereby man is given the opportunity to encounter truth and choose to believe or not.

So, throughout time, he has sent prophets to teach his word (Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing save he reveal his secrets unto his servants the prophets”).

The same is true in our day, from Joseph Smith down to the current prophet. Whether men choose to believe them, is what he wants to see.

And so, with His goal being to try our faith, it seems to make sense that he would ask for the plates return. They’d served their purpose, bringing to our knowledge the scriptural record of the ancient inhabitants of America (the “Other sheep” who “must hear my voice”).

Having served their purpose, it fits within the template of precedence to leave the rest to faith.

It would likely convince many if the tablet containing the ten commandments were on display in some Museum, having been verified of their authenticity. But that too would destroy the purpose – to try our faith.

this verse says that Christ’s work was not enough. what Jesus did isn’t good enough for us to believe in. . we have to do other things to be saved. in Ephesians it says, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9.

We cannot earn the kingdom of God- – the Bible makes it clear that we’re wretched dirty creatures, and everything we do will be thrown into the fire, to be tested, only to be burned up. That includes our ‘righteous acts’. it’s a gift of God that we’re saved from our sins, and become children of God “Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God” – John 1:12. the Bible says “believed in his name”, His name being Jesus. That’s how we inherit the Kingdom of God.

And your passage in Alma should not be used to bring an argument. . unless you wish to discourage unbelievers. If you can’t be saved in your sins. . then there is no hope for you! We’re born with sin (i know you don’t believe that. .but let’s look at some passages from the Bible) 1 Corinthians 15:46 – “The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.” That means that our sinful nature comes before our spiritual nature. Also, Romans 5:19 – “For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners. . ” Because of Adam’s disobedience, we were all born with sin– think about it, were you taught how to lie, cheat or steal? No, if you have children, you probably don’t have to teach them to lie about things, we naturally do it- it’s our sinful nature.
Jesus even tells us that we’re children of the devil – John 8:44-47 “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. ” So we’re born sinners. . and we can’t be saved in our sins? Well, so much for the new hope you guys bring! But the Bible says in Romans 5:8 “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”
God, while we were still sinners, gave us His Son.
So let’s recap – we’re born sinners, who don’t deserve grace, but while we were still sinners, God sent His son for us. . that’s all according to the Bible. but according to Alma 11, we can’t be saved while we’re in our sins.
goodness. . seems like there’s not a lot of hope in the BOM, but a lot of working for nothing if we can’t be saved from by our works or by Jesus’ work. Sad.

Such reasoning falls on its face. If God has promised a reward to those who obey his commandments, and we obey, we have not forced his hand in anything. To presume so is to presume that God had know foreknowledge when he made his promise. To make such a supposition is to manifest an inherent lack of trust in God. We can not force God to let us into heaven against his will. We can, however, conform to his will and be the kind of person that God will willingly invite in to meet him.

God has promised a reward for the obedient, and we shall not suppose to deny his word.

(Obviously, it’s not a matter of what we deserve, but a matter of what God wills, and he has not been silent as to neglect to tell us what he wills. Furthermore, I will note, that your representation of the LDS doctrine, for the sake of your argument, is not really very accurate.)

Does that not sound silly? No one deserves heaven or salvation. In fact, we all deserve hell. We deserve eternal separation from God. Plus, in Isaiah 64:6 it says, “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.”

All of our “righteous” acts are as filthy rags in front of God. We can try and try and try to do good things, but unless we’re covered with the blood of Christ, they’re nothing.

James said that faith without works is dead. . yes. But that doesn’t mean that your works save you. James is saying, “Don’t point to your works and say, ‘Look! There is my faith!’, but point to your works and say, ‘Because of my faith, look at these works that God’s been doing through me!’.” Your faith in Jesus should inspire you to clothe the naked and feed the poor. Because once you’re in Christ, you are a new creature. 2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!”. Your old nature has passed. Your want-to to do sin is gone, and since you’re living for God now, you should want to work to SHOW others the love of Christ.

In all that you do, it should be to show the love of Christ– not because it earns you anything.

Actually, Mormons believe all mankind is SAVED by the GRACE of God, even Hitler will be end up in a degree of glory (for Mormons hell is a lesser glory relative to the higher state where God dwells and family units are eternal). Conversely, Evangelicals believe a person must perform the WORK of physically “accepting Jesus” vocally to be saved. For them, not all will be “saved.”

Therefore, mormons believe in being saved by grace and Evangelicals believe in salvation by works (act of being born again).