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	<title>Comments on: Why do Mormons believe in Works?</title>
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		<title>By: autumn</title>
		<link>http://mormonconversations.com/why-do-mormons-believe-in-works/comment-page-1/#comment-2741</link>
		<dc:creator>autumn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 01:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonconversations.com/?p=1147#comment-2741</guid>
		<description>what part of my lds doctrine is not accurate? it&#039;s right from the BOM - &quot;For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER all we can do&quot; (2 Nephi 25:23). [emphasis added]

this verse says that Christ&#039;s work was not enough. what Jesus did isn&#039;t good enough for us to believe in. . we have to do other things to be saved. in Ephesians it says, &quot;For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.&quot; Ephesians 2:8-9.

We cannot earn the kingdom of God- - the Bible makes it clear that we&#039;re wretched dirty creatures, and everything we do will be thrown into the fire, to be tested, only to be burned up. That includes our &#039;righteous acts&#039;. it&#039;s a gift of God that we&#039;re saved from our sins, and become children of God &quot;Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God&quot; - John 1:12. the Bible says &quot;believed in his name&quot;, His name being Jesus. That&#039;s how we inherit the Kingdom of God.

And your passage in Alma should not be used to bring an argument. . unless you wish to discourage unbelievers. If you can&#039;t be saved in your sins. . then there is no hope for you! We&#039;re born with sin (i know you don&#039;t believe that. .but let&#039;s look at some passages from the Bible) 1 Corinthians 15:46 - &quot;The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.&quot; That means that our sinful nature comes before our spiritual nature. Also, Romans 5:19 - &quot;For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners. . &quot; Because of Adam&#039;s disobedience, we were all born with sin-- think about it, were you taught how to lie, cheat or steal? No, if you have children, you probably don&#039;t have to teach them to lie about things, we naturally do it- it&#039;s our sinful nature. 
Jesus even tells us that we&#039;re children of the devil - John 8:44-47 &quot;Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God&#039;s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. &quot; So we&#039;re born sinners. . and we can&#039;t be saved in our sins? Well, so much for the new hope you guys bring! But the Bible says in Romans 5:8 &quot;But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.&quot;
God, while we were still sinners, gave us His Son. 
So let&#039;s recap - we&#039;re born sinners, who don&#039;t deserve grace, but while we were still sinners, God sent His son for us. . that&#039;s all according to the Bible. but according to Alma 11, we can&#039;t be saved while we&#039;re in our sins.
goodness. . seems like there&#039;s not a lot of hope in the BOM, but a lot of working for nothing if we can&#039;t be saved from by our works or by Jesus&#039; work. Sad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what part of my lds doctrine is not accurate? it&#8217;s right from the BOM &#8211; &#8220;For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER all we can do&#8221; (2 Nephi 25:23). [emphasis added]</p>
<p>this verse says that Christ&#8217;s work was not enough. what Jesus did isn&#8217;t good enough for us to believe in. . we have to do other things to be saved. in Ephesians it says, &#8220;For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.&#8221; Ephesians 2:8-9.</p>
<p>We cannot earn the kingdom of God- &#8211; the Bible makes it clear that we&#8217;re wretched dirty creatures, and everything we do will be thrown into the fire, to be tested, only to be burned up. That includes our &#8216;righteous acts&#8217;. it&#8217;s a gift of God that we&#8217;re saved from our sins, and become children of God &#8220;Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God&#8221; &#8211; John 1:12. the Bible says &#8220;believed in his name&#8221;, His name being Jesus. That&#8217;s how we inherit the Kingdom of God.</p>
<p>And your passage in Alma should not be used to bring an argument. . unless you wish to discourage unbelievers. If you can&#8217;t be saved in your sins. . then there is no hope for you! We&#8217;re born with sin (i know you don&#8217;t believe that. .but let&#8217;s look at some passages from the Bible) 1 Corinthians 15:46 &#8211; &#8220;The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.&#8221; That means that our sinful nature comes before our spiritual nature. Also, Romans 5:19 &#8211; &#8220;For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners. . &#8221; Because of Adam&#8217;s disobedience, we were all born with sin&#8211; think about it, were you taught how to lie, cheat or steal? No, if you have children, you probably don&#8217;t have to teach them to lie about things, we naturally do it- it&#8217;s our sinful nature.<br />
Jesus even tells us that we&#8217;re children of the devil &#8211; John 8:44-47 &#8220;Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God&#8217;s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. &#8221; So we&#8217;re born sinners. . and we can&#8217;t be saved in our sins? Well, so much for the new hope you guys bring! But the Bible says in Romans 5:8 &#8220;But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.&#8221;<br />
God, while we were still sinners, gave us His Son.<br />
So let&#8217;s recap &#8211; we&#8217;re born sinners, who don&#8217;t deserve grace, but while we were still sinners, God sent His son for us. . that&#8217;s all according to the Bible. but according to Alma 11, we can&#8217;t be saved while we&#8217;re in our sins.<br />
goodness. . seems like there&#8217;s not a lot of hope in the BOM, but a lot of working for nothing if we can&#8217;t be saved from by our works or by Jesus&#8217; work. Sad.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean M. Cox</title>
		<link>http://mormonconversations.com/why-do-mormons-believe-in-works/comment-page-1/#comment-2636</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean M. Cox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:00:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonconversations.com/?p=1147#comment-2636</guid>
		<description>Autumn,
A citation (Alma 11:32-37):
( http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/11/32-37#32 )
  32 And Zeezrom said again: Who is he that shall come? Is it the Son of God?
  33 And he said unto him, Yea.
  34 And Zeezrom said again: Shall he save his people in their sins? And Amulek answered and said unto him: I say unto you he shall not, for it is impossible for him to deny his word.
  35 Now Zeezrom said unto the people: See that ye remember these things; for he said there is but one God; yet he saith that the Son of God shall come, but he shall not save his people—as though he had authority to command God.
  36 Now Amulek saith again unto him: Behold thou hast lied, for thou sayest that I spake as though I had authority to command God because I said he shall not save his people in their sins.
  37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

Such reasoning falls on its face. If God has promised a reward to those who obey his commandments, and we obey, we have not forced his hand in anything. To presume so is to presume that God had know foreknowledge when he made his promise. To make such a supposition is to manifest an inherent lack of trust in God. We can not force God to let us into heaven against his will. We can, however, conform to his will and be the kind of person that God will willingly invite in to meet him.

God has promised a reward for the obedient, and we shall not suppose to deny his word.

(Obviously, it&#039;s not a matter of what we deserve, but a matter of what God wills, and he has not been silent as to neglect to tell us what he wills. Furthermore, I will note, that your representation of the LDS doctrine, for the sake of your argument, is not really very accurate.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Autumn,<br />
A citation (Alma 11:32-37):<br />
( <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/11/32-37#32" rel="nofollow">http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/11/32-37#32</a> )<br />
  32 And Zeezrom said again: Who is he that shall come? Is it the Son of God?<br />
  33 And he said unto him, Yea.<br />
  34 And Zeezrom said again: Shall he save his people in their sins? And Amulek answered and said unto him: I say unto you he shall not, for it is impossible for him to deny his word.<br />
  35 Now Zeezrom said unto the people: See that ye remember these things; for he said there is but one God; yet he saith that the Son of God shall come, but he shall not save his people—as though he had authority to command God.<br />
  36 Now Amulek saith again unto him: Behold thou hast lied, for thou sayest that I spake as though I had authority to command God because I said he shall not save his people in their sins.<br />
  37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.</p>
<p>Such reasoning falls on its face. If God has promised a reward to those who obey his commandments, and we obey, we have not forced his hand in anything. To presume so is to presume that God had know foreknowledge when he made his promise. To make such a supposition is to manifest an inherent lack of trust in God. We can not force God to let us into heaven against his will. We can, however, conform to his will and be the kind of person that God will willingly invite in to meet him.</p>
<p>God has promised a reward for the obedient, and we shall not suppose to deny his word.</p>
<p>(Obviously, it&#8217;s not a matter of what we deserve, but a matter of what God wills, and he has not been silent as to neglect to tell us what he wills. Furthermore, I will note, that your representation of the LDS doctrine, for the sake of your argument, is not really very accurate.)</p>
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		<title>By: autumn</title>
		<link>http://mormonconversations.com/why-do-mormons-believe-in-works/comment-page-1/#comment-2598</link>
		<dc:creator>autumn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:20:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonconversations.com/?p=1147#comment-2598</guid>
		<description>But what I don&#039;t understand is why the LDS believe that what they do can get them into heaven/help them obtain salvation. That concludes to me that God would be in debt to us. It&#039;s like saying, &quot;Look, God, I clothed the naked, fed the poor, and other good things. Now because of what I have done, I deserve salvation/heaven.&quot;.

Does that not sound silly? No one deserves heaven or salvation. In fact, we all deserve hell. We deserve eternal separation from God. Plus, in Isaiah 64:6 it says, &quot;All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.&quot;

All of our &quot;righteous&quot; acts are as filthy rags in front of God. We can try and try and try to do good things, but unless we&#039;re covered with the blood of Christ, they&#039;re nothing. 

James said that faith without works is dead. . yes. But that doesn&#039;t mean that your works save you. James is saying, &quot;Don&#039;t point to your works and say, &#039;Look! There is my faith!&#039;, but point to your works and say, &#039;Because of my faith, look at these works that God&#039;s been doing through me!&#039;.&quot; Your faith in Jesus should inspire you to clothe the naked and feed the poor. Because once you&#039;re in Christ, you are a new creature. 2 Corinthians 5:17 &quot;Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!&quot;. Your old nature has passed. Your want-to to do sin is gone, and since you&#039;re living for God now, you should want to work to SHOW others the love of Christ.

In all that you do, it should be to show the love of Christ-- not because it earns you anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But what I don&#8217;t understand is why the LDS believe that what they do can get them into heaven/help them obtain salvation. That concludes to me that God would be in debt to us. It&#8217;s like saying, &#8220;Look, God, I clothed the naked, fed the poor, and other good things. Now because of what I have done, I deserve salvation/heaven.&#8221;.</p>
<p>Does that not sound silly? No one deserves heaven or salvation. In fact, we all deserve hell. We deserve eternal separation from God. Plus, in Isaiah 64:6 it says, &#8220;All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.&#8221;</p>
<p>All of our &#8220;righteous&#8221; acts are as filthy rags in front of God. We can try and try and try to do good things, but unless we&#8217;re covered with the blood of Christ, they&#8217;re nothing. </p>
<p>James said that faith without works is dead. . yes. But that doesn&#8217;t mean that your works save you. James is saying, &#8220;Don&#8217;t point to your works and say, &#8216;Look! There is my faith!&#8217;, but point to your works and say, &#8216;Because of my faith, look at these works that God&#8217;s been doing through me!&#8217;.&#8221; Your faith in Jesus should inspire you to clothe the naked and feed the poor. Because once you&#8217;re in Christ, you are a new creature. 2 Corinthians 5:17 &#8220;Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!&#8221;. Your old nature has passed. Your want-to to do sin is gone, and since you&#8217;re living for God now, you should want to work to SHOW others the love of Christ.</p>
<p>In all that you do, it should be to show the love of Christ&#8211; not because it earns you anything.</p>
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		<title>By: ethan</title>
		<link>http://mormonconversations.com/why-do-mormons-believe-in-works/comment-page-1/#comment-2319</link>
		<dc:creator>ethan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:39:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonconversations.com/?p=1147#comment-2319</guid>
		<description>Mormons do believe Christ was divine. Also, Don&#039;t confuse the LDS doctrines of salvation vs. exaltation.

Actually, Mormons believe all mankind is SAVED by the GRACE of God, even Hitler will be end up in a degree of glory (for Mormons hell is a lesser glory relative to the higher state where God dwells and family units are eternal). Conversely, Evangelicals believe a person must perform the WORK of physically &quot;accepting Jesus&quot; vocally to be saved. For them, not all will be &quot;saved.&quot;

Therefore, mormons believe in being saved by grace and Evangelicals believe in salvation by works (act of being born again).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mormons do believe Christ was divine. Also, Don&#8217;t confuse the LDS doctrines of salvation vs. exaltation.</p>
<p>Actually, Mormons believe all mankind is SAVED by the GRACE of God, even Hitler will be end up in a degree of glory (for Mormons hell is a lesser glory relative to the higher state where God dwells and family units are eternal). Conversely, Evangelicals believe a person must perform the WORK of physically &#8220;accepting Jesus&#8221; vocally to be saved. For them, not all will be &#8220;saved.&#8221;</p>
<p>Therefore, mormons believe in being saved by grace and Evangelicals believe in salvation by works (act of being born again).</p>
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		<title>By: Rusty Lindquist</title>
		<link>http://mormonconversations.com/why-do-mormons-believe-in-works/comment-page-1/#comment-2047</link>
		<dc:creator>Rusty Lindquist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 06:16:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonconversations.com/?p=1147#comment-2047</guid>
		<description>Thanks Jared.

Additionally, Job found hope and assurance that in his body he would see God:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://scriptures.lds.org/job/19/25-27#25&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Job 19:25-27&lt;/a&gt;: For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another...&quot;

And also Ezekiel saw this physical resurrection:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://scriptures.lds.org/ezek/37/7,12,14#7&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ezekiel 37:7, 12-14&lt;/a&gt;: &quot;So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.  And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above, but there was no breath in them... 

Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel... And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live...&quot;

Also, of course, there was the empty tomb, demonstrating his physical resurrection and departure.

Additionally, Christ taught a Physical Resurrection.  When challenged by rulers demanding some sign of his authorization to clear the temple of profane vendors and money changers, Jesus declared, &quot;Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.  

&quot;Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

&quot;But he spake of the temple of his body&quot; (John 2:19-21).

He said &quot;I lay down my life, that I might take it up again.  No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself.  I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.  (John 10:17-18).

 He said, speaking of himself &quot;And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.&quot; (Luke 18:33)

There are many others, but this should suffice to get you started.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Jared.</p>
<p>Additionally, Job found hope and assurance that in his body he would see God:</p>
<p><a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/job/19/25-27#25" rel="nofollow">Job 19:25-27</a>: For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>And also Ezekiel saw this physical resurrection:</p>
<p><a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/ezek/37/7,12,14#7" rel="nofollow">Ezekiel 37:7, 12-14</a>: &#8220;So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.  And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above, but there was no breath in them&#8230; </p>
<p>Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel&#8230; And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Also, of course, there was the empty tomb, demonstrating his physical resurrection and departure.</p>
<p>Additionally, Christ taught a Physical Resurrection.  When challenged by rulers demanding some sign of his authorization to clear the temple of profane vendors and money changers, Jesus declared, &#8220;Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.  </p>
<p>&#8220;Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?</p>
<p>&#8220;But he spake of the temple of his body&#8221; (John 2:19-21).</p>
<p>He said &#8220;I lay down my life, that I might take it up again.  No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself.  I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.  (John 10:17-18).</p>
<p> He said, speaking of himself &#8220;And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.&#8221; (Luke 18:33)</p>
<p>There are many others, but this should suffice to get you started.</p>
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		<title>By: Jared</title>
		<link>http://mormonconversations.com/why-do-mormons-believe-in-works/comment-page-1/#comment-2040</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 21:53:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonconversations.com/?p=1147#comment-2040</guid>
		<description>Uncle Bill,

Was not Christ resurrected with a physical body? Luke 24:36-43

&quot;And as they [Christ&#039;s apostles] thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them...Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.... And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them.&quot;

A Book of Mormon prophet explained also about resurrection: &quot;The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame.&quot; (Alma 40:23).

We will rise from the dead just as Christ did. I hope that helps. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uncle Bill,</p>
<p>Was not Christ resurrected with a physical body? Luke 24:36-43</p>
<p>&#8220;And as they [Christ's apostles] thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them&#8230;Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet&#8230;. And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them.&#8221;</p>
<p>A Book of Mormon prophet explained also about resurrection: &#8220;The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame.&#8221; (Alma 40:23).</p>
<p>We will rise from the dead just as Christ did. I hope that helps. <img src='http://mormonconversations.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: uncle bill</title>
		<link>http://mormonconversations.com/why-do-mormons-believe-in-works/comment-page-1/#comment-2035</link>
		<dc:creator>uncle bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 14:25:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonconversations.com/?p=1147#comment-2035</guid>
		<description>Why do mormons believe if the physycial literal ressurection of the body. Where is your scriptural reasoning.  Thanks</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do mormons believe if the physycial literal ressurection of the body. Where is your scriptural reasoning.  Thanks</p>
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		<title>By: Margaret</title>
		<link>http://mormonconversations.com/why-do-mormons-believe-in-works/comment-page-1/#comment-2002</link>
		<dc:creator>Margaret</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 02:36:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonconversations.com/?p=1147#comment-2002</guid>
		<description>Beautifully written.  This is what I believe and know to be true.  It&#039;s so logical that it would be that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beautifully written.  This is what I believe and know to be true.  It&#8217;s so logical that it would be that way.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kathryn Skaggs</title>
		<link>http://mormonconversations.com/why-do-mormons-believe-in-works/comment-page-1/#comment-1993</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathryn Skaggs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 16:21:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonconversations.com/?p=1147#comment-1993</guid>
		<description>Thank you for such a simple and obvious explanation as to why Mormons teach the doctrine of &quot;works&quot;, along side of mercy and grace.  
tDMg</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for such a simple and obvious explanation as to why Mormons teach the doctrine of &#8220;works&#8221;, along side of mercy and grace.<br />
tDMg</p>
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