“No one has ever, when searching with real intent, received a spiritual witness that any church, other than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church of Jesus Christ on the face of the earth today.”

While I could not disagree with you more, I appreciate the honesty of this comment. It seems few Mormons are willing to come right out and say this. According to LDS logic, if I tell you that I have searched with real intent and have been given a witness that the LDS faith is incorrect, than I must either be lying, deluded or simply mistaken.

Again, I don’t agree with any of this, but I do think these kinds of inter-faith conversations are much more fruitful when honesty trumps sensitivity.

God Bless

I’m glad you did join in. The beauty of these blog posts is that they’re usually timeless. You can comment on them a year from now, and have it be as relevant then as it is now.

I think you’re absolutely right, and this subject of evidence has surfaced so frequently lately. I think you’re comments that evidence is simply observation. For instance, in the eyes of someone who believes in God, all things on earth testify of him. We see his hand in it all, the sky, the trees, the magnificent, delicate, and intricate workings of nature, the body, etc. But to the eyes of an atheist, who “believes” only in science, all these things are evidence of principles of science. We’re looking at the same things, but seeing different things.

As I’ve said elsewhere, things of a spiritual nature, can only be given spiritually. Physical evidence can only testify of physical things (and even then, it’s subjective, as illustrated above), but it cannot give you a spiritual confirmation.

Thanks for joining; I hope you comment on other posts, in the same enlightening and articulate manner you did here.

Hindsight is 20/20 and it’s obvious that this question was a setup. Brad knew how you would respond and his motives were not enlightenment but an opportunity to disprove.

You did answer the question. and I don’t understand circular logic versus linear logic or any of that, but he asked how you would respond, and you answered. But this was a trick question. It’s been asked of me before using the exact same phrasing (it’s almost like someone is handing out cards with that question on it). I’ve discovered that anyone asking this question is not interested in your answer because they believe there is no way for you to answer it “correctly” and still believe the church is true (they can never know that it is possible because they have never been on this side of the issue).

This is a trick question because it has never happened. No one has ever, when searching with real intent, received a spiritual witness that any church, other than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church of Jesus Christ on the face of the earth today. If someone ever honestly said that they had, I would question them the way you suggest with your 4 points. But that’s never happened. People have asked this question with the “what if,” but no one has ever come to me, claimed a spiritual witness that their church was the only true church or that the LDS church wasn’t true. As far as I know, the LDS church is the only church where the majority of its members make that claim. Members of other churches are quick to point out they have had spiritual witnesses of doctrine such as that Jesus Christ lives, was resurrected and through him we are saved, which is no surprise, because that is true and the spirit will be quick to answer that in the affirmative. They will say they believe their church is true, but they will not claim a spiritual witness.

Brad was only interested in trapping you with his idea that you have to have EVIDENCE to back up your claims. The reason for this is he has not received a spiritual witness one way or the other and is relying on one interpretation of EVIDENCE to justify his beliefs (which is fine, just not a good way of finding truth). The problem is that EVIDENCE is only proof of itself. Science or evidence can only claim observation. It can never answer why. Any scientist who claims otherwise should be immediately disqualified as an objective observer. It requires supposition and interpretation to make the EVIDENCE mean what you want it to mean. All things are EVIDENCE that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true. Brad just chooses to interpret the same EVIDENCE in other ways claiming that his is the only valid logic or interpretation. I happen to agree that his claims are logical, but that doesn’t make them true.

There are countless logical explanations as to how a bloody knife with fingerprints on it found at a crime scene got there but only one of them is that the owner of the fingerprints committed the crime. The EVIDENCE only proves that there is a bloody knife with fingerprints at the scene of the crime, nothing else. Evidence is not truth.

It requires the Holy Ghost to witness truth. Without him, we are lost. With him, we can know the truth of all things.

I might have missed it, but I kept looking for what Brad would have said would have been an acceptable answer to the original question, especially if it was being asked to him. Is there an acceptable answer?

Have you (Brad) really based your entire faith on concrete or historical evidence? That would be surprising to me. Do manifestations of the Spirit play any role in your personal faith?

Acts 14:16, and here Paul is speaking and talking about God and how God reveals Himself, and in verse 15 he talks about “the living God, who made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them;” And then he says, “Who in time past allowed all nations to walk in their own ways. Nevertheless, he left not himself without witness, (how?) in that he did good,” did He make a good earth? Yes. He “gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons,” and He “filled our hearts with food and with gladness.” In other words the very goodness of life speaks of the goodness of God, the food and the rain and the seasons, and the joy of ‘living all speak of a beneficent, loving, gracious Creator.

Now go to the 17th chapter of Acts, and Paul preaching to the philosophers on Mars’ Hill in Athens, verse 23, says you have here an unknown God, which by the way was reflective of their understanding of the true God though they didn’t know His name. You ignorantly worship Him, so I’m going to tell you about Him, you know He exists and you’ve got an unknown God statue just to cover Him but you don’t know who He is, but I’ll tell you who He is, “He’s the God who made the world” verse 24, “and all things in it, he’s the Lord of heaven and earth, he dwells not in temples made with hands, He is not worshiped with men’s hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things.” They were always accustomed to bringing food and sticking it at the feet of their idols, he said you don’t have to feed this God. “He is made of one blood all nations of (you have) men to dwell on the face of the earth, he has determined the times before a pointed, and the bounds of their habitation.” In other words He controls the nations, their boundaries, He controls time, He controls destiny, He controls everything. A beneficent, loving, gracious Creator.

“That they should seek the Lord, if perhaps they might feel after him,” in other words if men would just feel after Him, if they would just see that He is and reach out for Him, “they would find him, because he is not (what? He’s not) far from every one of us?

For in him we live, and move, and have our being.” He is right there and He has manifested Himself in an undeniable way. Listen to this remarkable passage of Scripture, John’s gospel, chapter 1, verse 9, listen to what it says, just listen, Christ is that Light, that is lighting all men. Did you hear that? Does that mean all men are saved? No. What it does mean is, that all men are illumined with the knowledge of God. Christ is the Light that is lighting all men. No one has an excuse.

A rainbow in the sky, is it not evidence? Moses rod, was not it’s works evidence for both Pharoah and the Israelites? Did not Moses came down from the mountain with the tablets?
Did not Jesus perform many signs and wonders for evidence that He was God?

God has always provided the physical evidences for “I AM”.
Isn’t He Just. So how can it be that we are asked by you to surrender our minds and without any real physical evidence for the Book of Mormon, leap into your belief system? Is that something new that God is doing now?

Yet, even then, some “small” part of me thinks that you’re not really interested in the answer/origin to any of these, but rather like most Mormon critics, simply want to work up a frenzy over those things you know nothing about and have invested no time of yourself to find out. Unfotunately, while that will work on other blogs, it won’t work on mine, especially with such overused points.

Oh, and illustrating my point, it’s Nephites, not Neophites. However, I was particularly interested to see you list this one, apparently you’ve not done much keeping up with ancient American archeology. Still if you have one you’d particularly like me to elaborate on, feel free to list it on the “Ask a question page”.

Rusty

There is no principle, no fact, no evidence, no critique that can be offered to dispute the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints. Why else does the church continue to flourish in spite of the rampant criticism of people like you? Because the standard of truth has been erected. No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing. Persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, columny may defame, but the work of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, until it has penetrated every continent, visited every country, swept every clime, and sounded in every ear. So said Joseph Smith almost 200 years ago when there was no “evidence” to support the claim, just the pure gospel of Christ, yet here we are, watching the literal fulfillment of those words.

The works of those like you who spend so much time trying to refute, but then who are incapable of producing the evidence you so openly flaunt will make no difference in the progress of the work of God.

I’m sorry that I’ve been unable to help you open your mind to the matter, but it appears as though there’s little value in continuing this conversation further. I wish you the best.

Rusty