“And this ye shall know assuredly –— that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me. But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead. And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments; and this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me. For verily I say unto you, that he that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before, to teach those revelations which you have received and shall receive through him whom I have appointed.”

Note especially this phrase: “none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him.” This passage seems to command us to disregard all commandments and revelations given by anyone not explicitly ordained by Joseph Smith to give commandments and revelations. Most of Smith’s succession claimants based their argument in some instruction or ordination given by Smith, but really only his son, Joseph Smith III, claimed to have been ordained and appointed in this way by his father. The other arguments, based on position in the First Presidency (Rigdon), assignment to establish Zion in Texas (Wight), angelic ordination combined with letter of assignment (Strang), position in the Quorum of the Twelve combined with temple ordinances (Young), etc., are all poor fits for this requirement.

One might work around this based on the phrase, “until he be taken,” although I’m not entirely sure whether this works. On the one hand, the grammar of the D&C is often confusing, and it could be the case that the sentence beginning with “But verily, verily, I say…” has an implied qualification limiting its applicability to the period up to Smith’s death. Yet that opening phrase is so sweeping and emphatic that it seems to me as if the text is pointing away from this possibility and requiring Smith to appoint and ordain his successor, whether Smith’s departure from office is due to death or to apostasy.

So, if this was God’s commandment, have we ever had a real prophet besides Joseph Smith. The more I study the scripture, the more I question the authority of the faith.

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Has the Church from the time of the Apostles ever taught such heresy? Yet you hold to the doctrine of lies in the face of clear and compelling evidence that the LDS Church has failed to uphold truth within it’s own walls.

But my experience has been with Mormon’s when they are challenged to justify there doctrine from the Word of God they hide in their shell like a turtle and proclaim persecution. So there you are Margaret, Rusty’s behavior seems cowardly.

I will be patient as well. Rusty when your ready, please show me in the Word of God where it is I can find the prophecy of the “great fall away” and the restoration given to Joseph Smith. This time instead of giving me verses that I have to learn and refute with no value in proving your theory, I ask that you find one verse and spend a few paragraphs or more explaining as how they prove your belief.

From Rusty:

Unfortunately, I’m not going to hold your hand. You won’t gain a testimony, nor clarity of understanding unless you invest a little yourself. I’m not sorry that I’ve given you verses that you’ve “had to learn”, perhaps you should see the value in learning them, rather than complaining about not being spoon fed the word of God.

I’m confused at you Marty. Earlier you said “we examine all things, whether they be truth or false, by the use of scripture”, and then in the next breath you’re complaining about having to learn new scriptures. You say “Show me where to find prophecy of the great falling away and the restoration”, but when I do, you say I’m “whacking away at scripture”, and don’t go do your homework to read and understand. You claim in an earlier comment that we should not believe something just because we were taught that way, or raised that way, but by scripture. But if you haven’t read these scriptures (for I’m making you learn them), whereon are your beliefs founded?

What all of this tells me, is that you’re not serious about learning the gospel. You’re not here to understand, you’re not here to seek, and you’re lazy.

Unfortunately, I’ve got other topics I’m anxious to get on to, and that are important to cover. But I’m continuously unable to get to them, because the precious little time I have I spend giving you scriptures that you gripe about having to learn. In short, it’s time I move on. I cannot help you, until you’re willing to be helped, and invested in learning.

So, because I am moderating your comments, I’ll be very selective now about what I let through. If it fits within the guidelines I’ve already explained to you, then I’ll allow it, if it doesn’t, if it’s simply repetative, or argumentative, or destructive, don’t bother, because I won’t let it through.

I wish you the best.

Rusty

Your posts read much more like lambasting than questions or discussion. Rusty stated his purpose. Please be respectful and abide by it.

Now you have silenced my tongue only because of challenge you could not overcome, and then labeled me a persecutor.

I asked you turn away from your deception and seek truth only from the Bible, unfiltered through the lens of the LDS church. Look above Rusty , 1.2 billion people practice Islam. How do you know that your not another unbeliever. Examine yourself, whether you be in the faith! Toss off all your prior learnings and stay bound only to the Word of God found in the Bible. If the Word had trained Timothy to be “wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Then that my friend is enough.

I’m not sure you would… abate that is, I hope for your sake you are that kind of person.

And I have not “silenced your tounge” (how dramatic we are), for have I not approved each of your succeeding posts in spite of their destructive intent?

If the Bible were the only word of God, I’d be happy to oblige. But I know that it’s not. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Just because he spoke to those at and around Jarusalem, and called prophets, and they recorded His teachings bringing us the bible, doesn’t mean that he couldn’t, or didn’t do the same elsewhere. “For other sheep have I that are not of this fold, them also must I bring, and there shall be one fold, and one shepard.” These other places that the Lord visited, these other sheep, must have followed the same template he gave his prophets in the Bible, and recorded His ministry among them, and his teachings. The Book of Mormon is simply the record of his teachings on the American Contentent. Gods lips aren’t sealed. Simply because he spoke once, doesn’t mean he can’t speak again? Simply because he visited one people, doesn’t mean he can’t visit other people, and teach them as well. Indeed, the more scripture we have the better we understand. Would our understanding of the Gospel be as rich as it is today if all we had was the Old Testament? Didn’t the New Testament add so much clarity of doctrine? How much more then from yet another source. “For out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established”. But, I’m getting ahead of myself, an open cannon is my next post on this series.

God declares through Prophet Isaiah;

Isaiah Chapter 42, Verses 9-12.

“Behold, the former things are come to pass, and the new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. `Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth’. Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voices, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory unto the Lord, and declare His praise in the inlands.”

God did reveal in the Land of Kedar, through prophet Muhammad – a direct descendant of Kedar, a “New Song” – The Qur’an. Nearly 1.2 billion Muslims, residing all over the world, recite this “new song” and Glorify Allah, in their daily prayers, five times in a day. The initial Revelation came to prophet Muhammad in a cave of Mount Hira near the city of Mecca.

Sound familiar?

Not remotely, but that’s okay, the Bible tells us that many shall arise and lead away the very elect (sound familiar – hint Mathew 24:24) Each man must determine for himself whom he will follow.

I’m going to rest now until you give me a verse in context of the word, that stands out and screams your truth.

From Rusty:

That’s all? You do a superficial (and misinterpreted) “study” of two of those verses and not only come out with the wrong conclusions, but throw up your hands in victory?

Indeed, we do examine all things by scripture, it’s just that we must examine them fully. But unfortunately you’re incorrect in your dismissing or underestimating the power of your feelings. For the Holy Spirit worketh upon the heart. He testifies of truth. If the strength of your testimony is limited to your comprehension of scripture, then your foundation will always be only as strong as man may make it. For as soon as a scripture comes along that doesn’t match your view, or once someone explains to you what the scriptures you’ve so long misnunderstood actually mean, then your foundation is shaken.

But when your testimony is founded upon a confirmation from the Holy Ghost, then your foundation is built up on Christ, not the limited capacity of the mind of man.

Perhaps after your rest, you should study and pray, there are a number of additional references I’ve already provided you that you need to study. Good luck.

FYI – I’ve edited your posts above and put you on moderation, which means I’ll have to approve your comments before they’re posted. I’ve warned you before and been patient through your trite remarks. You seem to have forgotten the purpose for this blog, which I’ve described before. I don’t mind questions, any questions, but under the conditions I’ve already explained to you. I value my other readers to much to let this be a venue for your pention for persecuting Mormons.

In future comments, should you choose to make them, I’ll activate them based on their genuine desire to seek clarity. The comments above qualify in intent, but not in execution, so you’ll need to phrase them more carefully if you’d like your voice on the public discussion of these points.

Rest well.

“Therefore I say unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruit thereof.”

Who was Jesus speaking to? Who is the “you” – Go back to Matthew 21:23 – “And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?”

We see it was the chief priests and elders. So lets move on with verse 45

“And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.”

From Rusty:

I’m both stunned and disappointed at how poorly you understand the scriptures, it’s like you’re reading them, and not comprehending.

Of course he was speaking of them; it is they from whom the kingdom of God shall be taken. Read the parable. The parable talks about the Lord of the vineyard, how he had entrusted a winepress to some husbandmen. But when he sent his servants, they stoned and killed them. So he sent his son, and they did likewise.

The meaning is that God entrusted the people of that place and time with the truth of the gospel, he sent prophets (his servants), and they stoned and killed them. So then he sent his Son, and they did likewise. And what was the result? That the Kingdom of God was taken from them… again, the apostasy. The church of God among man was removed, and given to a nation bringing forth better fruits – or in otherwords, it was taken, and restored… apostasy, and restoration.

You keep asking for scriptures to tell you these things, but when I give them to you, you don’t study and pray and seek to understand them. They’re so clear. How much more clear can it be than “it shall be taken from you, and given to someone else”, is that not what constitutes a restoration? Something is taken, and then restored? Please, if you’re going to insult me, call me a coward for not responding immediately, and bask in your pretended glory for confounding me with scripture, at least understand what scriptures you’re talking about. These are all so easy.