http://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/2009/01/19/the-return-of-sidney-rigdon-gods-spokesman/

All four parts of that article and the other articles and posts mentioned in it will provide answers to ALL your questions from a much deeper and different perspective.

I must believe from the nature of your questions and the fact that you visit Mormon related sites, that even though you have not been able to accept Mormonism, perhaps you haven’t totally ruled it out and you are looking for the deeper answers to the questions you have.

Let me assure you that there are other perspectives than the usual answers given by LDS apologists.

The missing pieces of the prophet puzzel can be found in scripture if you search deep enough.

Joseph Smith was not perfect nor was he infallible, but, he WAS a prophet.

I’m sorry to have to point this out, but your last comment makes rather poignant and entertaining illustration of how critics attempt to mislead others my ridiculous over dramatizations that distort truth.

Let me explain.

You said you’re confused because “On the one hand you say the prophet isn’t infallible, yet on other posts you praise your religion for having the living prophet”. You compared that to sitting in a race car knowing the tire will explode at any time.

Let me ask you four questions?

1. According what you believe, how many infallible people have ever lived?

2. According to your belief, how many prophets have ever lived?

3. Are you grateful for the prophets?

I don’t know if you’re Christian or not, but I am. And as such, I believe that Christ was the only infallible person who ever lived, and that’s a rather orthodox view. It’s also an orthodox view that the bible contains the words of the prophets, which I guess draws the obvious conclusion that indeed, as you state “the prophet isn’t infallible”. But should that stop us from being grateful for having a prophet? Does it stop you, or others who believe in the Bible from being grateful to the prophets?

I hope you like racecars, because if you feel that being grateful for a prophet, however fallible, feels like sitting in one that’s about to explode, then you’re in for a journey. But perhaps it feels so dramatic to you, because it’s in your character to over dramatize things. How much time have you spent worrying over the topic in this thread? It’s a lot of drama, leading nowhere, and I fear it’s wasting your time. But, then again, I suppose it’s your time to waste. I just wish you’d waste it elsewhere, for my tolerance of the discussion has grown short.

You’ve now sufficiently illustrated your tendency to warp facts in order to sway opinion, and I never had any tolerance for that to begin with.

I hope you’re able to move on to more productive channels for your thoughts and attention, and wish you the best.

Isn’t it more comforting, knowing that the mystery has been revealed in Jesus Christ, the perfect one, and delivered to the Saints once and for all, and that there isn’t any longer a need for a prophet?

Rusty, you ever brought home a gnat on your fruit from the grocery store?

I can associate all to well with that! LOL.

Mary,

I agree, if you wish to spend more time upon the matter, you’ll need to seek information elsewhere. We’ve already addressed it, and have extracted all the value from the conversation on this particular topic. I’m sorry if we’ve not answered you to your hearts content, but not every path is worth following.

I fear you’re straining at a nat, while the important things pass you by.

As for the exact date of a recession, not to my knowledge. As you seem persistent on learning the recent prophecies of the Latter-day Prophets I renew my invitation to read the recent general conference addresses found at http://www.lds.org – This is not an issue I have spent a lot of time researching lately. Maybe we can look forward to a future post from Rusty!?!

Rusty, great job on your blog. I really enjoy your posts. I am happy to add my opinion whenever I have time. Lately my posts have been nothing short of a guilty pleasure stealing precious moments away from the mountains of work piled around me.

I have found the following article here if you want to continue reading about Adam-God and B.Y.’s teachings.

http://www.lightplanet.com/response/adam-god.htm

The intent of this authors article is to refute people like me who claim that B.Y was not a true prophet and other fundamentalist Mormons who still hold true to the B.Y.’s teaching. The author starts the article with:

“At the age of twenty, as a missionary for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I first came in contact with the so-called Adam-God theory in an anti-Mormon tract. I had read such literature before and knew that it frequently twisted and misinterpreted LDS sources. I therefore felt certain that the purported quotation from Brigham Young’s April 9, 1852 discourse–that Adam is our father and our God–either was taken from context or was an outright fabrication.

After examining the evidence, however, I soon became convinced that on at least two occasions Brigham Young had taught a concept which generally has not been accepted by Mormons–namely, that God the Father, the Father of our spirits and the Father of Jesus (of both his body and his spirit), came to this earth, took upon himself mortality, and was known as Adam, the progenitor the of human family. Simply stated, according to President Young, God the Father became Adam. (Journal of Discourses [JD] 1:50; Deseret News, June 18, 1873). Later I found several other references in which President Young hinted at this belief. (JD 4:216-218, 271; 5:331; 6:274; 7:290; 11:41,42).

Over the past fifteen years I have found many additional sources which confirm that this idea was taught for a period of time in the past century. They include sermon reports, private diary entries, minutes of meetings, letters, articles, and statements. Many of these are unpublished and have only come to light in the last several years.”

I was also wondering if your prophet prophesized the year that this recession would come or if he left wide open? Has there been any real solid prophecy that we can sink our teeth into?

I’m not belittling the question you asked, that’s why I’ve spent so much time on it here. I’m anxious to remove any stumbling blocks one might have to truly understanding Mormonism. My intent is not to convert, but to clarify. The spirit converts, and if my meager efforts can in any way clear up widespread public misperceptions, then I’ve played a small part in preparing the path for the spirit to do that work.

All too often, it’s things like this, perpetuated by others, that instantly close the hearts and minds of a person to the spirit. My goal is to open those doors. That’s why I allow any question, any discussion, as long as it’s respectful and sincere.

Joseph Smith counseled the members, that when they taught doctrine they should stay close to the trunk (or core doctrines of salvation) rather than venture too far out on the branches. He compared the doctrine of Christ’s Church to a tree. The principles of salvation that are found in the “trunk” of the tree; whereas, speculation, opinion (e.g. whether the pearly gates swing or roll open) would be the branches.

The discussion found on the link above is trying to figure out what was actually intended by BY’s teaching. A Prophet of God has cleared it up with the doctrine relayed by Rusty posted in the comments above.

There are still many mysteries about God. It seems silly to me to focus too much attention on this mischaracterized teaching as it has been clarified ad nauseam by the Church. The role of an active LDS member would be to pray to the Lord for their personal confirmation of the truthfulness of Adam’s role in the pre-existence, not pontificating on things of little to no importance to our personal eternal salvation. But that is my opinion.

Thank you for the recent quotations you’ve offered in your last post. As for who Elder McConkie referred to as those believing God and Adam were the same person, or that our Church officially endorsed such doctrine is unknown to me. There have been several groups break off from the LDS Church over the years. What I do know is that as Elder McConkie wrote, the knowledge we have as a Church regarding who Adam actually was comes from teachings found in the Book of Moses in The Pearl of Great Price (revelation given to Joseph Smith). As far as I know B.Y. was misinterpreted – as a whole the Church has never believed, nor taught that Adam was God the Father. Some small segments may have focused in on that statement from him and dissented. This is a common practice that is evident today in the many Christian faiths. Some focus in on what day should be the Sabbath, others on what baptism should actually be performed. I assume something similar happened with the Adam/God teaching.

As for revelation vs. prophesy the difference is not limited to Mormon theology, nor was I inferring that one should be disregarded. (As Rusty and others have pointed out, B.Y.’s revelation regarding Adam is clearly understood when one reads the entire REVELATION).

Revelation in the religious aspect is a communication from God to an individual He has selected to be His messenger. We believe any righteous person can receive revelation for his/her own life. The dictionary defines revelation as: “The divine or supernatural disclosure to humans of something related to human existence in the world.” Such a communication is generally something previously unknown. But Christ also taught that revelation can be from the Holy Ghost calling to our remembrance something forgotten (See John 14:26).

Prophesy is a communication from God to a chosen recipient (called a prophet) to predict a future event. Again, we believe this to be a gift from the Holy Ghost that is available to any righteous follower of Christ. However, Christ’s Church has order, and as the Lord revealed to Amos, he will instruct his Prophets, (see Amos 3:7). Since Adam, the Lord has called Prophets to guide and direct His Church. Even the Paul taught that Christ’s Church is built on a foundation of Prophets and Apostles (Ephesians 2:20). In latter days the Lord has called Prophets and Apostles to guide and direct His Church in preparation from His Second Coming.

So, when a Church leader is teaching a new gospel principle (like GBH before he passed away taught Church members to respect their bodies as temples as instructed by Paul meant to not tattoo our bodies) that is a revelation. But when a Church leader predicts a future event and tells the membership to prepare for such event, that is a prophesy. (An example would be President Hinckley predicting a recent sharp downturn in the world economy, therefore counseling against debt and encouraging members to build up a 6 month supply of food).

Now, the list you provided initially did contain some prophesies, but were mostly teachings or writings from Church leaders at the time. Again, I just want to emphasize my intention was not to toss away the reveled things of God in the Bible because they are not prophecy.

One more point to clarify – you mentioned that populating NYC was a far cry from populating the whole Earth. True point. Bear in mind that when J.S. made that prophesy, there were only a handful of members. Rusty has a link posted on his blog to the youtube video showing the growth of the Church worldwide, but can be found here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4731328707513660562

Your comment about perverting God’s word is interesting…considering the fact that to Mormons your characterization and insistence of the Adam/
God doctrine is taught and believed by Mormons is a perversion of God’s Word to latter-day Prophets. Irony is fun isn’t it?

Lastly, you comment on Joseph F. Smith and Orson Pratt and their apparent dissension regarding B.Y.’s teaching is interesting. The Lord provides knowledge line upon line and precept upon precept. (See Isaiah 28:13). The Church has always encouraged its members to gain what we call a testimony of the teachings of the prophets. The Church does not expect brainwashed acceptance, rather to study out doctrines and pray about their truthfulness. It is my opinion that these men were trying to understand Adam’s true calling as described by Rusty above. This knowledge about Adam was learned over time, in the method described by Isaiah as referenced above. (Note it is further light/knowledge regarding the first man and carnal father of the human race than contained in the Bible. Not essential to the salvation of man, rather a nice faith building story that sheds light on God’s overall plan for the salvation of His spirit children.

“The doctrine was never submitted to the councils of the Priesthood nor to the church for approval or ratification, and was never formally or otherwise accepted by the church. It is therefore in no sense binding upon the Church. Brigham Young’s ‘bare mention’ was ‘without indubitable evidence and authority being given of its truth.’ Only the scripture, the ‘accepted word of God,’ is the Church’s standard (Letter to A. Saxey, January 7, 1897, HDC).”

and in 1980, Latter-day Saint apostle Bruce R. McConkie gave a talk elaborating upon the Adam–God theory:

“There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our god, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship.
“The devil keeps this heresy alive as a means of obtaining converts to cultism. It is contrary to the whole plan of salvation set forth in the scriptures, and anyone who has read the Book of Moses, and anyone who has received the temple endowment and who yet believes the Adam-God theory does not deserve to be saved.* Those who are so ensnared reject the living prophet and close their ears to the apostles of their day. ‘We will follow those who went before,’ they say. And having so determined, they soon are ready to enter polygamous relationships that destroy their souls.

I am ever so grateful that the doctrine was denounced too Rusty. But who is “those who went before” that McConkie had referred to?

I will be waiting for your post at bycommonconsent to get them straightened out. That would be a good to get this ironed out.