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	<title>Comments on: Placebo &#8211; the power of belief</title>
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	<description>Discussions on faith, religion, Mormonism, and other important topics</description>
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		<title>By: How to Get Six Pack Fast</title>
		<link>http://mormonconversations.com/placebo-the-power-of-belief/#comment-85</link>
		<dc:creator>How to Get Six Pack Fast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:59:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ongofu.com/2008/02/20/placebo-the-power-of-belief/#comment-85</guid>
		<description>My fellow on Facebook shared this link with me and I&#039;m not dissapointed   that I came to your blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My fellow on Facebook shared this link with me and I&#8217;m not dissapointed   that I came to your blog.</p>
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		<title>By: Finn McGowan</title>
		<link>http://mormonconversations.com/placebo-the-power-of-belief/#comment-84</link>
		<dc:creator>Finn McGowan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:25:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ongofu.com/2008/02/20/placebo-the-power-of-belief/#comment-84</guid>
		<description>Hi Rusty, thanks for your intelligent reply.

&quot;Progression by steps allows us to be prepared for the burden of responsibility&quot;

That makes sense.  But of all the starting points God could have chosen, why did He choose that we should exhibit a  penchant for believing fantastic, unverifiable stories?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Rusty, thanks for your intelligent reply.</p>
<p>&#8220;Progression by steps allows us to be prepared for the burden of responsibility&#8221;</p>
<p>That makes sense.  But of all the starting points God could have chosen, why did He choose that we should exhibit a  penchant for believing fantastic, unverifiable stories?</p>
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		<title>By: Finn McGowan</title>
		<link>http://mormonconversations.com/placebo-the-power-of-belief/#comment-83</link>
		<dc:creator>Finn McGowan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 16:38:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ongofu.com/2008/02/20/placebo-the-power-of-belief/#comment-83</guid>
		<description>A witness of God will only come after a trial of your faith

Why is that?

Why is it a prerequisite that we convince ourselves that He exists, without any verifiable evidence?

Why would God value our believing in things we can neither detect or demonstrate?

&lt;blockquote&gt;From Rusty,

Sorry I&#039;m just now getting to this...

Great question.  Let me address that question with a question.  If you are a father, and you have a son who you are trying to teach the value of money, and how to be responsible with it, would he learn those important lessons if you just gave him money whenever he wanted it, without having to earn it?  Is there not something in the earning of that money that is critical in appreciating its value?  Would he learn to be responsible with his money if he knew he could simply come to you for more, with no effort put forth on his behalf?

Gifts from God, including most of all a testimony of Him, are of the highest value.  If this were a free gift, given to all at no price, would we truly appreciate its value?  What’s more, would we be prepared to be accountable for that important knowledge?

For with knowledge comes accountability.  Man is required to be obedient to the level at which he has learned – hence we are taught “line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little”.  Progression by steps allows us to be prepared for the burden of responsibility of greater knowledge.

If someone just walked into a gym out of the blue, and loaded up 300 lbs and tried to bench press it, it’d probably kill him.  But if he really wanted to meet that goal, he would exercise faith, believing he could do it, and that would drive him to come into the gym regularly, building up his muscles to bear that much weight, and then, after a sufficient “trial of his faith”, he could do it.  But only after working up to such a point.  The faith that he could do it drove him, which, coupled with his actions, made it possible (faith without works is dead).

In a similar way, the personal, spiritual, and emotional growth we incur by exercising faith, believing without proof, prepares us for the responsibility of the knowledge we seek.  Without that foundation, we would not be prepared for such tremendous accountability.

Finally, when we exercise faith, without the benefit of proof, we prove ourselves to God, and by so doing, qualify for the blessings of added knowledge of the witness that we seek.   They just can’t be free.

Does this help at all?&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A witness of God will only come after a trial of your faith</p>
<p>Why is that?</p>
<p>Why is it a prerequisite that we convince ourselves that He exists, without any verifiable evidence?</p>
<p>Why would God value our believing in things we can neither detect or demonstrate?</p>
<blockquote><p>From Rusty,</p>
<p>Sorry I&#8217;m just now getting to this&#8230;</p>
<p>Great question.  Let me address that question with a question.  If you are a father, and you have a son who you are trying to teach the value of money, and how to be responsible with it, would he learn those important lessons if you just gave him money whenever he wanted it, without having to earn it?  Is there not something in the earning of that money that is critical in appreciating its value?  Would he learn to be responsible with his money if he knew he could simply come to you for more, with no effort put forth on his behalf?</p>
<p>Gifts from God, including most of all a testimony of Him, are of the highest value.  If this were a free gift, given to all at no price, would we truly appreciate its value?  What’s more, would we be prepared to be accountable for that important knowledge?</p>
<p>For with knowledge comes accountability.  Man is required to be obedient to the level at which he has learned – hence we are taught “line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little”.  Progression by steps allows us to be prepared for the burden of responsibility of greater knowledge.</p>
<p>If someone just walked into a gym out of the blue, and loaded up 300 lbs and tried to bench press it, it’d probably kill him.  But if he really wanted to meet that goal, he would exercise faith, believing he could do it, and that would drive him to come into the gym regularly, building up his muscles to bear that much weight, and then, after a sufficient “trial of his faith”, he could do it.  But only after working up to such a point.  The faith that he could do it drove him, which, coupled with his actions, made it possible (faith without works is dead).</p>
<p>In a similar way, the personal, spiritual, and emotional growth we incur by exercising faith, believing without proof, prepares us for the responsibility of the knowledge we seek.  Without that foundation, we would not be prepared for such tremendous accountability.</p>
<p>Finally, when we exercise faith, without the benefit of proof, we prove ourselves to God, and by so doing, qualify for the blessings of added knowledge of the witness that we seek.   They just can’t be free.</p>
<p>Does this help at all?</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Rusty Lindquist</title>
		<link>http://mormonconversations.com/placebo-the-power-of-belief/#comment-65</link>
		<dc:creator>Rusty Lindquist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:59:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ongofu.com/2008/02/20/placebo-the-power-of-belief/#comment-65</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think there&#039;s anything to add to that.  You said it very well, and that&#039;s a healthy contribution to this post.  Thank you for putting so much thought into it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s anything to add to that.  You said it very well, and that&#8217;s a healthy contribution to this post.  Thank you for putting so much thought into it.</p>
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		<title>By: samasti</title>
		<link>http://mormonconversations.com/placebo-the-power-of-belief/#comment-70</link>
		<dc:creator>samasti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ongofu.com/2008/02/20/placebo-the-power-of-belief/#comment-70</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t you think Rusty, that belief and faith are different? Belief is of the mind; faith is beyond that. Believing in something gets you there. But if one can rest in faith, one is surrendered to What is His Will, not our will or belief. So faith to me is not equivalent to believe. I can get what I want if I believe I can, but ONLY if I deserve it and there faith comes in, for He can and will only give me what is good for me, not otherwise. I may Will to have even what is not good for me, in faith, in His great compassion and love for me, He will always protect me from what is not good for me, even if I don&#039;t understand it now.
Samasti</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t you think Rusty, that belief and faith are different? Belief is of the mind; faith is beyond that. Believing in something gets you there. But if one can rest in faith, one is surrendered to What is His Will, not our will or belief. So faith to me is not equivalent to believe. I can get what I want if I believe I can, but ONLY if I deserve it and there faith comes in, for He can and will only give me what is good for me, not otherwise. I may Will to have even what is not good for me, in faith, in His great compassion and love for me, He will always protect me from what is not good for me, even if I don&#8217;t understand it now.<br />
Samasti</p>
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		<title>By: Rusty Lindquist</title>
		<link>http://mormonconversations.com/placebo-the-power-of-belief/#comment-82</link>
		<dc:creator>Rusty Lindquist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 14:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ongofu.com/2008/02/20/placebo-the-power-of-belief/#comment-82</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I was out sick for a couple days, but I&#039;m back now....

Ben, of course, and thanks for joining us.  I&#039;d also be happy to post periodically there as well.  Just give me login instructions, or tell me how you&#039;d like to receive my posts.

Rusty</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I was out sick for a couple days, but I&#8217;m back now&#8230;.</p>
<p>Ben, of course, and thanks for joining us.  I&#8217;d also be happy to post periodically there as well.  Just give me login instructions, or tell me how you&#8217;d like to receive my posts.</p>
<p>Rusty</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://mormonconversations.com/placebo-the-power-of-belief/#comment-81</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2008 05:26:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ongofu.com/2008/02/20/placebo-the-power-of-belief/#comment-81</guid>
		<description>What great post and follow up discussion!  I see your point Rusty, that you were only drawing a parallel between the enabling &lt;i&gt;power&lt;/i&gt; of belief in a placebo and belief in God, not the &lt;i&gt;object of faith&lt;/i&gt; but I like everyone else&#039;s insights, too.

I was wondering... may I cross-post this article in my blog, &lt;a href=&quot;http://definingfaithlds.blogspot.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Defining Faith as a Latter-day Saint&lt;/a&gt;?  It&#039;s a community blog about faith in daily life.  Actually, if you&#039;re interested, I&#039;m looking for authors/contributors, too.  Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What great post and follow up discussion!  I see your point Rusty, that you were only drawing a parallel between the enabling <i>power</i> of belief in a placebo and belief in God, not the <i>object of faith</i> but I like everyone else&#8217;s insights, too.</p>
<p>I was wondering&#8230; may I cross-post this article in my blog, <a href="http://definingfaithlds.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Defining Faith as a Latter-day Saint</a>?  It&#8217;s a community blog about faith in daily life.  Actually, if you&#8217;re interested, I&#8217;m looking for authors/contributors, too.  Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Rusty Lindquist</title>
		<link>http://mormonconversations.com/placebo-the-power-of-belief/#comment-80</link>
		<dc:creator>Rusty Lindquist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 06:16:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ongofu.com/2008/02/20/placebo-the-power-of-belief/#comment-80</guid>
		<description>Nathanial, great addition.  You don&#039;t sound preachy at all, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said, and you said it very well.  Thanks for taking the time to say it.

I&#039;m beginning to think I should have used a different example for illustrating belief.  ;-)

The point isn&#039;t the placebo, it isn&#039;t a replacement, nor a comparison for faith.  My point with using that was that even when we have faith in an illusion, it can often have a positive influence in how we feel.

But as you suggest, when we have faith in something real, in something substantial, in something eternal, in God... well then miricles can become a part of our lives.

Rusty</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nathanial, great addition.  You don&#8217;t sound preachy at all, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said, and you said it very well.  Thanks for taking the time to say it.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m beginning to think I should have used a different example for illustrating belief.  <img src='http://mormonconversations.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>The point isn&#8217;t the placebo, it isn&#8217;t a replacement, nor a comparison for faith.  My point with using that was that even when we have faith in an illusion, it can often have a positive influence in how we feel.</p>
<p>But as you suggest, when we have faith in something real, in something substantial, in something eternal, in God&#8230; well then miricles can become a part of our lives.</p>
<p>Rusty</p>
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		<title>By: Nathaniel</title>
		<link>http://mormonconversations.com/placebo-the-power-of-belief/#comment-79</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathaniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 05:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ongofu.com/2008/02/20/placebo-the-power-of-belief/#comment-79</guid>
		<description>Interesting thought.  However I have problem.

Don&#039;t compare   faith   in   GOD   with   faith   in   a   PLACEBO.
They are two very different things.

Placebos don&#039;t really do anything...... It&#039;s really our own positive attitude and faith (in the dumb placebo) that causes the change.

However, correct belief, true understanding of God is not just an allusion. A belief in our Heavenly Father and his Son Jesus Christ is not some kind of mind game of positive thinking that produces great psychological effects.

When you truly exercise faith in Heavenly Father you can.... well what can we think of

- the blind recieve their sight  (Mark 8:22-24)
- the crippled are made whole
- a man can walk on water  (Matthew 14:22-23)
- mountains are moved
- the seas are parted (Exodus 14)
- a dead man return to life (John 11:1-46)


Did all that happen just from the power of positive thinking?? When was the last time you saw someone come out of a Dr. Phil session pulling out one of these.

In all seriousness, when we have faith in our Heavenly Father he will bless us.... way more than positive thinking ever will.  He is real. He not an allusion like some placebo.

I myself have seen miracles in my own life. Actually very recently I have seen a good friend use a little faith and he has experienced great blessings. Our Heavenly Father is a God of miracles.

Sorry if I sounded preachy. I just think this is a important point. Too often people are confused about this.

Check out     www.mormon.org</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting thought.  However I have problem.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t compare   faith   in   GOD   with   faith   in   a   PLACEBO.<br />
They are two very different things.</p>
<p>Placebos don&#8217;t really do anything&#8230;&#8230; It&#8217;s really our own positive attitude and faith (in the dumb placebo) that causes the change.</p>
<p>However, correct belief, true understanding of God is not just an allusion. A belief in our Heavenly Father and his Son Jesus Christ is not some kind of mind game of positive thinking that produces great psychological effects.</p>
<p>When you truly exercise faith in Heavenly Father you can&#8230;. well what can we think of</p>
<p>- the blind recieve their sight  (Mark 8:22-24)<br />
- the crippled are made whole<br />
- a man can walk on water  (Matthew 14:22-23)<br />
- mountains are moved<br />
- the seas are parted (Exodus 14)<br />
- a dead man return to life (John 11:1-46)</p>
<p>Did all that happen just from the power of positive thinking?? When was the last time you saw someone come out of a Dr. Phil session pulling out one of these.</p>
<p>In all seriousness, when we have faith in our Heavenly Father he will bless us&#8230;. way more than positive thinking ever will.  He is real. He not an allusion like some placebo.</p>
<p>I myself have seen miracles in my own life. Actually very recently I have seen a good friend use a little faith and he has experienced great blessings. Our Heavenly Father is a God of miracles.</p>
<p>Sorry if I sounded preachy. I just think this is a important point. Too often people are confused about this.</p>
<p>Check out     <a href="http://www.mormon.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.mormon.org</a></p>
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		<title>By: yourfootgirl</title>
		<link>http://mormonconversations.com/placebo-the-power-of-belief/#comment-78</link>
		<dc:creator>yourfootgirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 00:33:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ongofu.com/2008/02/20/placebo-the-power-of-belief/#comment-78</guid>
		<description>So what you are arguing is that if you believe in something enough it will happen?

The problem with that is that the placebo effect doesn&#039;t have a real effect, it is an imagine effect.  Positive thinking can possibly affect your stress levels and make you a mentally healthier person, but it won&#039;t magically heal you.

Again, there is the key flaw with your rationalization.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what you are arguing is that if you believe in something enough it will happen?</p>
<p>The problem with that is that the placebo effect doesn&#8217;t have a real effect, it is an imagine effect.  Positive thinking can possibly affect your stress levels and make you a mentally healthier person, but it won&#8217;t magically heal you.</p>
<p>Again, there is the key flaw with your rationalization.</p>
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