For those of you who weren’t aware, last week was the national HOPE conference in New York. No, this isn’t a self-help conference teaching us how to increase our capacity to hope (I wish it were). Rather, it’s a gathering of some of the most talented and well-known hackers around the planet. HOPE stands for “Hackers on Planet Earth”.
At every HOPE conference there’s a popular area called “Lockpicking Village” where they discuss all the latest lock picking techniques.
Reflecting on the whole thing, I couldn’t help but draw the parallel to those who somehow think they can “slide” into heaven, somehow opening the “doors” of heaven without actually going through the mandatory prerequisite steps.
A lock is made of tumblers in a tube, each of which must be in the correct place before the lock will turn. Inserting just the right key will put those tumblers in their required positions, but inserting any other key, or a partial key, will only place a few of the tumblers, if any, in the necessary position, and no matter how hard you twist, or how long you wait, the lock simply won’t turn and the door simply won’t open.
So many religions teach the doctrine that man needs to do little, if anything, for salvation. In fact, often they teach that it’s as simple as accepting Christ, or being baptized. But first, baptism must be done by one holding the proper authority, but even then, that is only one of the tumblers in the lock. There is more we must do. Baptism and faith alone are insufficient for our exaltation; they’re only part of the lock. Religions that teach such doctrine, therefore cannot adequately equip you to enter into the kingdom of God.
The proof is in scripture itself, for we will, as Revelation 20:12-15 states, be “judged… according to their works”.
While the sacrifice of our Savior put the gate on the barrier, making entrance possible, it does not make entrance sure. The surety of our salvation can only be gained by approaching that day armed with the right key, the one that satisfies the demands of all the tumblers in the gate, baptism by authority being one of them.
While this doctrine is far from traditional, it is prevalently backed by scripture. And while critics are quick to protest, it is not the burden of Mormonism to back this claim, but the burden of anyone believing contrary to come up with a suitable explanation for each of the scriptures which clearly state otherwise (and which I list in detail here - a post that has gone almost entirely unchallenged).
But the miracle of Mormonism, or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is that through Joseph Smith, the great latter-day prophet, the gospel of Christ was restored to the earth in its fullness along with all the keys, authority, ordinances and covenants necessary for us to do all we must do to enter the kingdom of our Father.
I invite you to learn more about this prophet Joseph Smith (here), partake for yourself in the miracle of Mormonism, and experience the rich blessings that come from understanding and living the fullness of the gospel.
Rusty
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Revelation 20:12-15 states, be “judged… according to their works”.
You see, the point is this, works do not determine your salvation–they just manifest that you really were saved. Do you see the point? So that when God judges men He will judge them on the basis of their deeds, because their deeds will manifest whether, in fact, they are regenerate or not.
God can look at your works as the objective proof that you have been saved. And He will look at your works and see the pattern of righteousness, not just relative human goodness, but true righteousness born of a love for God. And He will also see that your name is written in the Book.
“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied” (Matthew 5:6).
Awesome! Be sure to click on the links to learn about “the Prophet Joseph Smith” and the “Miracle of Mormonism”! they are extremely enlightening.
Martin, I agree with you wholeheartedly. When you become completely converted to Christianity, you cannot sit still. The love in your heart is so rich and abundant, that you have an outpouring of love to those around you and works are then a symbol for your love for Christ.
But I submit that those who on their death bed who declare faith in Jesus may not have been truly converted. I won’t judge, but I feel that true conversion is more than a declaration after a life of ease and procrastination.
Ryan
Ryan, that reminds me of a parable told by Jesus. I hope you can find your answer within it. I know what you mean by “not judging”. It is best that you let Him pay as He sees fit.
Jesus said: “The kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard. About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the market-place doing nothing. He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ So they went. He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’ ‘Because no-one has hired us,’ they answered. He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’ When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’ The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. ‘These men who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’ But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’ So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
We’ve both said the same thing. You said God judges our works to determine the reality of our faith, since righteous works are the natural result of pure faith, but the results are the same. We’re judges by our works, and they must be sufficient. It’s not a free ride. Unless you draw a distinction between salvation and exaltation, the two of which are often confused.
But I’m not just talking about righteous living. I’m talking about being able to fulfill all the requirements of exaltation, which extend beyond baptism, such is simply the first step (and is only efficatious so long as it is done by one holding the proper authority). Such is what I mean in describing the fullness of the gospel.
We’re blessed to live in a time where the gospel is here in it’s fullness and we can complete all the steps necessary for our eternal exaltation, where we can me admitted into the kingdom of our father and enjoy such things as the eternal companionship of our spouses, and the eternal togetherness of our families. Such exalted blessings are available today to the Latter-day saints.
I agree with you on this post, and on this last comment of yours, Rusty.
Martin, you truly do speak the truth: “So that when God judges men He will judge them on the basis of their deeds, because their deeds will manifest whether, in fact, they are regenerate or not.”
As you quoted, faith without deeds, or works, cannot occur. When one has been blessed with true faith, they will be compelled to do good (i.e., follow the commandments of God, enter into covenants with Him, etc., etc.). So faith without works, then, would be like filing a lawsuit with no evidence.
Indeed, it is a great blessing that we live in a time where our God has seen fit to call living prophets and apostles once more!
http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/background-information/organizational-structure-of-the-church
Rusty, did you think I had disappeared?
As you note, the role of obedience is one of our areas of disagreement. I believe that Mormons have made Christ’s passion unnecessary by returning to “the law” as Paul describes it in Romans.
Much of the first part of Romans refutes your argument: Just as those who hold Romans as a central description about what Christ’s death, resurrection, and ascension mean have to wrestle with the passages that describe judgment based on works, you have to wrestle with Romans. (See my comments in parens below.)
Romans 3:9-28 charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, 10 as it is written: “There is no one who is righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who has understanding, there is no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned aside, together they have become worthless; there is no one who shows kindness, there is not even one.” 13 “Their throats are opened graves; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of vipers is under their lips.” 14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” 15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery are in their paths, 17 and the way of peace they have not known.” 18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
(Our understanding of these verses is that this is the description of all humanity … in all time. It is not just directed toward people in a specific time and place. Paul has made the argument that the attempts to reach God and be obedient fail because of sin.)
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For “no human being will be justified in his sight” by deeds prescribed by the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.
(vs. 20 … put another way, God will not make righteous, God will not save anyone through their obedience to the ordinances)
21 But now, apart from law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.
(An interesting translation issue appears in this verse. It can either read “…the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.” or “…the righteousness of God through faith of Jesus Christ for all who believe.” You see it could be either Christ’s faith or ours that saves.)
For there is no distinction, 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; 24 they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus.
(Gift language and earning through obedience language are at odds here. Faith is the central role, not obedience.)
27 Then what becomes of boasting? It is excluded. By what law? By that of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law.
(Mormons I’ve “spoken with” do several things with this, often disingenuous. One is to discount Paul and his importance. After all, according to Mormons, Paul is not a prophet and so Joseph Smith trumps Paul. Another is to make these passages describe “partial” justification, that is, that faith “opens the possibility” for salvation. Continuing effort is necessary to maintain salvation. However, the earlier part of this quoted section and the earlier parts of Romans really doesn’t permit that kind of interpretation. Another route is to move to misrepresent the claim that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and claim that we ignore the rest of scripture just to hold this. The nuance of “who effects our salvation” is missed, for Christians holding strong to the description of salvation in Romans maintain it is Christ alone who effects salvation, while Mormons have to participate in salvation, negating verse 27. [Granted, I'm probably missing some nuance here also.]
What ultimately is our difference here is not so much faith vs. works or obedience. It is the role of Christ. From what I can discern, Mormons see Christ as offering access to salvation … if you do the rest. Christians claim that salvation is completed and continues in Christ alone.
There is another issue here. Lutherans embrace paradoxes in faith matters without trying to resolve them. For example, we are saved by faith alone and obedience counts. Many other Christians and Mormons make attempts to resolve the paradox to find the one right solution. That results in great misunderstanding.
In it all. Obedience does not save us, because that obedience is incomplete, stained by sin, and inherently dishonest.
Pondering Pastor
I think you explanation was beautiful, I don’t agree with all of it, but I do agree with most of it.
You say “In it all, obedience does not save us, because that obedience is incomplete”. I totally agree. Only Christ saves us. No matter how much we do, no matter how good we are, we are not saved by our works. We are saved by Christ. As such who affects salvation in our eyes? Christ. We’re no different there.
Yet he says he will judge us according to our works. Judge us for what? Why? Why would he judge our works if our works did not affect our entrance into the Kingdom of God? He judges us because as you say, they do play a role in our eternal inheritance. And I agree that righteous works are nothing more than the proof of our commitment to the Savior, which is what makes them the perfect thing to judge, because as someone said on another comment, it’s not what’s in our heart that matters, but how that actually affects our actions.
The scriptures you quote here we agree with (and I’ve never heard that Mormons don’t think Paul is a prophet – but either way, his words are in the Bible and we believe the Bible to be the word of God). The problem is that there are these other scriptures that I outline here that still have to be answered (and no-one has). What does he mean when he says “He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.” Shouldn’t that be “… salvation unto all”? But then there’s that awful final qualifier. It’s not salvation to all, it’s salvation to all that obey him. Apparently, our works which he says he judges, are part of the salvation equation.
When it says that “not the hearers of the law are justified, but the doers”, I have to ACT to be justified. Who shall enter into heaven? “Not every one that saith unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven” then he continues “but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven”. Who enters heaven? The doers . Why? Because he judges our works (Rev 20) and determines if they’re sufficient for him.
We’re told in Galations that the works of the flesh are manifest, and they that do evil shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Why, because before you can enter the kingdom of God, he judges your works.
But even then, again, I’m not talking just about righteous living, and enduring to the end, I’m also talking about all the other steps necessary for our salvation, for any church can teach righteous works, but only the one has the true authority for baptism, and to perform all the other ordinances and covenants necessary for us to walk back to our Father in heaven.
It’s like the analogy I use in this post. It can be said that Christ created the doorway to heaven, one that enables all men to pass. Were it not for Christ, creating that doorway, the keys we have or the works we do would be pointless, like standing at a wall that has no door. So yes, it can be said, that Christ created the doorway to heaven, the only door through which one can gain entrance, and without which entrance is denied.
But when we get there, he judges us according to our works (Rev 20:12-15). The doers of the word will be justified (Romans 2:13-16 | James 1:22-25 | Matthew 7:21-23), those that do not the things of God shall not inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:20-23), for we will be rendered according to our deeds (Romans 2:5-11 | Matthew 16:27 | Revelation 22:12-15), for only he that endureth to the end shall be saved (Mathew 24:13), for faith without works is dead (James 2:14-26).
In other words, we’d better have the right keys when we get there, having done all that was required, otherwise, in like manner, the doorway will be of little use.
Like ships passing in the fog …
… a careful response in due time.
PP Welcome back! Somehow I knew you were lurking out there somewhere.
PP: I can explain James 2 14-26 if Rusty allows.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the adevils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” What does this mean: “Faith without works is dead”? Does this mean that to be saved we have to do works? Well let’s find out.
Back up, verse 14. We have got to get the context. “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?”
What does the Bible teach about salvation? Abraham was justified by works? Romans four, is that what it says? “Abraham was justified by what…? “Faith.” Abraham was not justified by works. Romans chapter three says, “No man is justified by works. By the deeds of the law shall…” what? “No flesh be justified,” none. There is no way that we can be justified. In Romans 3:28, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.” Salvation is by faith, not by works. Galatians chapter three tells us the same thing, that you cannot be justified by works, you cannot be saved by what you do, in terms of deeds. He says, “…they that are of faith,” Galatians 3:9, “are blessed with faithful Abraham.” It’s all a matter of faith. The man that is justified, he says in verse 11, “But no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, … The just shall live by faith.” Now the Bible teaches that you are saved by faith, well you say that what in the world is James saying?
Can faith save him? James is looking at this from the stand point of evaluation. He is looking at a man who says, “I have faith!” And he is saying, all right if you have true saving faith then I ought to see some evidence of it, right? “By their fruits you shall…” what? “…know them.”
He is simply saying, if your faith is genuine then it’s going to manifest itself. “If any man be in Christ he is a new creation, old thing are passed away and behold all things become…” what? “…new.” There is going to be a manifestation. And so he says, what kind of faith have you got my friend, I don’t see any evidence? For example, he says, “If a brother or sister be naked and destitute of daily food and one of you who claims to have saving faith says depart in peace be warm and filled.” Just what he needs. Condolence. Hope you feel better, hope you find some food. But you don’t give him the things needful to the body, what kind of faith is that? If you’re really saved it’s going to be a working kind of salvation that will bear fruit. That’s all he’s saying. So, in verse seventeen, “…so faith, if it doesn’t have works, is dead, because it’s alone.” So it’s a dead faith not a living faith. If “a man may say, thou hast faith, and I have works; show me your faith without your works, and I’ll show you my faith by my works.” And he contrasts two kinds of faith.
One kind of faith is the faith that doesn’t have any works and it is dead faith and the other faith is the faith that produces something and its living faith. One saves and one doesn’t. That’s what he is saying, “Oh,” but he says “I believe, I believe,” “Yeah,” he says, “The devils believe and they tremble.” It’s not enough to believe unless that believing results in an act of commitment to Christ that results in a changed life that bears fruit. That’s his whole point.
Martin, Thanks for the effort. The problem is that Mormons will focus in on the works that arise out of faith and find that to justify their view. There will be little argument about your post, and yet, Mormons miss the centrality of faith. As I listen to them ,they maintain faith becomes that which enables the saving work. You and I will agree that this misses the point. I’d recommend James Fowler’s book, _Stages of Faith_.
Pondering Pastor
Sheesh, I’ll try to make this short. No one will be saved by works. It is true those who are saved will be rewarded according to their deeds. Those who obeyed God more will be rewarded more. But salvation cannot be earned. It is a free gift: “Not of works, so that no one can boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9 says: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.” If you could earn salvation, Jesus would not have died on the cross for your sins. Thinking you can add to his finished work is a slap in the face to God.
You can read more about true salvation and true Christianity in my blog. My husband used to be Mormon.
Andrea,
You’re right, we’re not saved by works. That’s what I’ve said. You’re also right, salvation cannot be earned.
Yet there are all of these scriptures that say we also cannot be saved without our works.
But what you say about those who have done more will be rewarded more, drips with deeper doctrine that bears further exploration, and is an increasingly important avenue to address in this cross-faith exploration of the balance between works and salvation. It gets into the difference between salvation and exaltation, and a tierd inheretance after death.
Thank you for making that distinction, and based on your response there, it could be that we agree completely, but are using different terms (which would not be surprising).
PP, that looks like a magnificant book, thanks for the recommendation. I’m actually heading out now to see if I can go get the hard copy. If not, I may have to settle for the electronic version for immediacy sake.
Martin, it looks like your comments came accross twice, I removed the first version (FYI) since the second seemed like it had more clear formatting. I’ll read and reply soon, I just want to get to the bookstore before it closes.
Rusty
You said, “So many religions teach the doctrine that man needs to do little, if anything, for salvation.” Can you please name me a few? One or two?
Mr. Rusty, I really appreciate your kind tone, which shows through. How long have you been a Mormon? Would it change your life immensely to become a born again Christian instead? Do you believe you will become a god and have wives and children in heaven? Do you believe Jesus traveled to the United States? Do you believe Joseph Smith was presented the Book of Mormon by an angel or a demon? Do you believe that God wants men to have more than one wife? Those are many questions, but they are the first that come to mind when I recall Mormonism.
Rusty and all:
I think there is a big part missing in all of this, and that is the degrees of glory or degrees of salvation. The analogy in the post fails I think, because everyone’s key will unlock some door – just a matter of which door. I think discussing this without including the degrees of glory will come up short.
Mormonism is very generous when it comes to salvation. All will be saved from death and hell. All except a very small number will receive a salvation. Mormons are almost universalists.
The degree of slavation depends largely on what kind of people we become as judged by Christ.
Pushing for a salvation that partially depends of works without including salvation by degrees always comes up short.
Eric,
Precisely. This is the deeper doctrine to which I refer in my reply to Andrea, that she hinted at. I’ll explore it further in a separate post today or tomorrow.
Andrea,
No life change would prevent me from doing what I know to be right. It might make me drag my feet, but it certainly wouldn’t stop me. still, I’ve had too many ongoing confirmations of the truthfulness of what I believe to make me even think of doubting. What’s more, the more I learn and study, the more it all makes sense, and the less room there is for any doubt of it’s divinity.
I do believe that if I can fulfill all the requirments there are, that one day, I too can “inherit all the father hath”, as Paul said. I also do believe that Christ did visit the American continent. In the bible he said “Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold, them also must I bring, and they shall here my voice, and there shall be one fold, and one shepard.” Who am I to say he can’t visit wherever he pleases, are we not all children of God? Still, I’ll do a separate post on his visit to America and the record of that visit as kept in the Book of Mormon.
I do believe that Joseph Smith saw God the Father and His son Jesus Christ, a sacred event that led to a cascading sequence of events (including the delivery of the Golden Plates) in order to accomplish the restoration of Christs church and the organization of Prophets on the earth today. Such experiences are the nature of prophets through all time.
I do not believe in poligomy, if I did, I couldn’t be Mormon, for I would be excommunicated.
Such questions are not stumbling blocks for me, for as I study the scripture, I realize that all of these that seem so “untraditional”, are really only untraditional because of the departure of traditional Christianity from Christ’s original church and teachings, but none of which run contrary to the actual representation of truth in scripture. The concept of living prophets is beautiful, and comforting, as are the concepts of theosis “human diefication”, and the Book of Mormon as a second testament to Jesus Christ (the stick of Joseph as spoken of in the Bible).
The truths I’ve been able to embrace by virtue of revealed religion, and the clarity brought about by further witnesses of the Savior have enabled me to shake the shackles of traditional belief and see clearly God’s eternal plan of salvation. I would be a fool to forsake such truth, like turning away from the sun at noon-day, and denying it’s existence.
I think Rusty is (wisely) trying to teach principles of the gospel in small servings. No one could learn it all at once, but “line upon line, precept on precept”. The Lord gives us basic principles, and then adds to them as our understanding increases. The understanding comes through study and prayer. As we understand one concept, another is added.
When someone tells me something new that I haven’t heard before, or that what I believe is wrong, I simply give it the test of study, prayer, and listening to the Holy Ghost. I have 40+ years of experience with this method, and have learned to trust it. I have to admit that there have been times when I have had to change what I believe. The most important part is to be open to what the spirit tells me. For that, I have to set aside my pride. Sometimes that’s not so easy if I think I know it and don’t need the spirit to tell me.
I have learned a lot here from many of you. I hope all of us can be humble enough to let go of our pride and listen to the spirit, and learn step by step.
Sorry. I did not realize which missionary discussion you were on.
Carry on.
Eric,
I really didn’t mean that as a criticism to you. I know Rusty welcomes comments and questions as they come. Please don’t hesitate to make ANY comment because of what I said. I don’t have any inside road to his plan and I suspect it’s always flexible. Sorry.
“I would be a fool to forsake such truth, like turning away from the sun at noon-day, and denying it’s existence.”
Rusty, I am asking how you can expect a non-mormon to do exactly as you can’t. There are no real evidences for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon; no sun at noon-day.
Eric, Margaret’s right, you’re comments were incredibly well-timed, as were those from Andrea, the perfect segue to take the discussion to a new level. Please, don’t hesitate to add comments.
Larry,
But there are evidences, many of them, if you’re Christian and already accept the Bible to be the word of God (I’ll list them separately). But evidence is not required. Such is the position of any non-christian looking at Christianity. ‘WHAT EVIDENCE’ is there, they all cry, much like the saduccees and others in the bible coming to Jesus and wanting a sign, what do they want? Evidence!
But evidence was not meant to be the way we gain a testimony of truth. And so many come to accept God, and Christianity despite the lack of proof, or evidence, that can show incontravertably that the path is correct, such is the point of faith, and the need to do our due dilligence, study it out in our minds for ourselves, and then approach God in solemn prayer to ask if it is right.
Evidence doesn’t convert. The holy spirit converts.
I’m pretty sure that Jesus showed the saduccees enough evidence that He was God in the flesh that some murdered him. I’m also sure by those same signs and wonders, many believed in Him – “Evidence”.
I am also sure that all mankind has the knowledge of God by the evidence He has left in His creation and enough evidence that He holds them without excuse. (Romans 1: 20 “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”
Rusty, what about when he hung the rainbow? Was it not left as evidence of His promise.
Isn’t God Just. Would the Holy Spirit convert without evidence?
Another great conversation. I’d like to point out that one problem with the LDS “lock” is that no one in the LDS Church really knows how to open it. For example, at one point in time a key tumbler was celestial marriage (aka plural marriage).
Brigham Young clearly taught “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, page 269).
Future LDS Church President Joseph F. Smith on the subject: “Some people have supposed that the doctrine of plural marriage was a sort of superfluity, or nonessential to the salvation of mankind. In other words, some of the Saints have said, and believe that a man with one wife, sealed to him by the authority of the Priesthood for time and eternity, will receive an exaltation as great and glorious, if he is faithful, as he possibly could with more than one. I want here to enter my protest against this idea, for I know it is false…” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, pp. 28-31)
I could go on and give other examples from LDS leaders at the time, but that’s not the point. The point is that LDS leaders today totally reject the idea that celestial marriage is essential to exaltation. In the eternal LDS world who will be right? Who really knows? We can only speculate.
Another example is the Word of Wisdom. According to the official Mormon Church site lds.org, obeying the Word of Wisdom is essential to exaltation. Joseph Fielding Smith taught:
“SALVATION AND A CUP OF TEA…. my brethren, if you drink coffee or tea, or take tobacco are you letting a cup of tea or a little tobacco stand in the road and bar you from the celestial kingdom of God, where you might otherwise have received a fulness of glory? … There is not anything that is little in this world in the aggregate. One cup of tea, then it is another cup of tea and another cup of tea, and when you get them all together, they are not so little (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, p.16).
Yet Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and most all the early Mormon leaders drank tea, coffee and alcohol.
It was not until the temperence movement of the early 20th Century that Mormons began to see the Word of Wisdom as an essential commandment.
Now to my main point: how can Mormons point out to others the “mandatory prerequisite steps” to get into heaven when they are not really even sure of them?
Do you have to have more than one wife in the next life to get into the highest heaven?
Do you have to keep the Word of Wisdom (let’s remember the part about not eating meat 9 months out of the year!) if Joseph and Brigham didn’t?
I think I can understand why most people would lean toward Christ alone for salvation. It’s much easier to understand.
Comments added above. Please do not waste my time, nor the time of my readers with falsities. If you wish to discuss principles, scripture, and Mormonism, that’s great, but you’ll have to do it with genuine intent, and not led by the desire to dispute, argue, confuse, or mislead. You’re comments are now moderated.
Hi Rusty,
It is so easy for people to become offended or unkind when they are arguing for what they believe. I see you got angry at Mark up there.
I really admire you for your comment that you would cling to the truth whatever it is and no life change would frighten you enough to cling to a lie.
I have been talking with a Mormon named Aaron on my blog. Would you mind taking a look at the comments and jumping in?
In Christ’s Love,
Andrea
“Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God?”
Rusty I think it a good thing that we discuss God’s evidences and how they are the basis for transformation into saving faith. Unless you still uphold your doctrine of conversion without evidence. God is just, and He has provided bountiful evidences for conversion to faith. Through the same evidences He rightly judges those persons who have eternally denied Him. Previously, I had asked how God could judge righteously without providing absolute evidences for the Book of Mormon. It confuses me that God led the Israelite’s for 40 years in the desert by a pillar of fire, yet in the case of the Book of Mormon, it’s followers are wandering in the desert and waiting for the day to come when evidence will prove their book without a doubt. Christian’s are not waiting for evidence. We are not asking non believers to forsake the lack of evidences and follow a pillar that might some day appear.
A few weeks ago, my daughter had the chicken pox. I guess the chicken pox isn’t as common anymore with the vaccination, so just in case for you who don’t know, they are small red bumps that appear over all your body and desire immense scratching to relieve the itching. The infection is highly contagious and lasts for a week or so. I have five other children who have not received immunizations so my wife and I have been waiting the last days for the next kid to breakout.
Last night, while I was in a deep sleep, my nine year old comes through the bedroom door. “Dad Dad”, he yelled, “I can’t get to sleep, I have these bumps all over and I can’t stop itching them.” I listened and compared all of his symptoms with that of my daughters. Expecting to soon hear those words, I nudged my wife’s foot from beneath the covers and announced my diagnosis,”Chicken Pox!” She nudged me back and told me to take him downstairs and give him some Benadryl.
After we made it downstairs, I turned on the light to examine how bad they already covered his body. I lifted off his shirt to look at the bumps and behold on his chest was not a single chicken pox to be found. Instead after closer examination, it was evident that what he had was rather the hives. Probably just an allergic reaction to some tropical flavored Kool-Aid he had drank earlier in the evening. I still fixed him up with some Benadryl and kicked him back off to bed.
Afterwards it was apparent to me that neither his explanation of the itching or the knowledge of his bumps confirmed anything by themselves. It was when I turned on the lights and could see the evidences with my own eyes that I made could the right call.
Likewise, there’s all kinds of things out there masquerading as the gospel. And according to 2 Corinthians 11, Satan is primarily disguised as an angel of light. I think his primary occupation and primary function is in the realm of false doctrine and false teaching and false religion. I thought to myself , would God give us the itching and bumps and then leave us without any hard evidence for the existence of the Nephites, something we could touch and see with our own eyes? My conclusion was that He would never leave us in confusion. He is just and if not just then He is not God. Amen! He was, is, and always will be a God of evidence.
Thank you Lord Jesus for being True. Your Truth is the anchor for all men and the foundation of all faith. Without your truths how are we to trust your promises of salvation. And through your same promise, we rest, waiting for that glorious day when we shall be with you. Father God you are Holy indeed, there is none like you. All your creation sings praises to your Glory. There is none that will escape your rightful judgment. Holy Spirit, you lighten our ways with your Truth. We praise you and worship you forever and ever.
Added. Nice work on this one. Btw, my blog is dofollow, stop by and grab a link. Bompa
Larry, I like your analogy about the chicken pox and hives. There is another side to it, however.
What if you had made the observation of the symptoms of your son and compared them to those of your daughter and thought “I don’t need to look at them because he has been exposed, the symptoms are the same, so I know it’s Chicken pox!” Without investigating it further, you miss the truth.
So it is with those who rail against Mormonism. They read anti-Mormon literature, listen to others who also speak out against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and think they are experts and “know” it is false. Rarely, if ever, do they actually read the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. They don’t study it out in their minds, pray, and listen to the Spirit. Most have never even read the entire Bible, studied and prayed so they really know what it teaches. Instead they take a few scriptures, some out of context, and insist that proves their point.
As several of us said before, we challenge you to read and study it for yourself. After you have done that, pray sincerely with the intent of finding out if it is the truth. Those who refuse to do that, to their detriment, will never know if it is true, and will bumble around in the dark.
This is why we try so hard to share what we have. It brings us so much joy and we want all to have it! Those who refuse to turn the light on and look will, sadly, never know the truth.
Margaret, your suggestions to read, study, and pray to see if the Book of Mormon is true can only produce the itch. It falls right in line with my process. Evidently you failed to read all of my post.
How can you judge something you don’t understand and haven’t studied and prayed about? Are you afraid to? There is much proof that the Book of Mormon peoples existed. With effort you and anyone else can find it.
I do agree with your last paragraph. Jesus Christ is true. And He has given us more than the Bible so we can have a full knowledge of the Gospel. Much has been taken away from the Bible through the centuries in the many translations. Heavenly Father is great, holy and loves us more than we can comprehend. The Savior speaks to us today through a living Prophet, because He loves us. We are so blessed to live at this time in the history of the world. There is no need to fear studying these things!
Nice post, you got some good points there – thank you.
Hi Margaret,
The Bible is complete in and of itself. It contains everything we need to know God and live the way he wants us to. The Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible, and therefore, cannot be true.
Margaret, I think it’s somewhat disingenuous to lead readers with impressions that the Book of Mormon is historically accountable. The same caution for your “Bible lost in translation theory.” They simply are not true. You want me to surrender my mind to the church led by a prophet while believing the Bible to be mistranslated. No Thanks!
What scares me most is this: Members of your faith would not leave the church even if officials reversed earlier doctrine and announced the Book of Mormon as divinely inspired but not containing any ancient history.
Would you?
One problem with this website, folks, (and you probably won’t see this comment b/c of it), is that it’s heavily moderated by Rusty, and he will only let you see what he deems fit for you to see. As such, all the discussions that could take place don’t, and as a result all of the ideas of opposition to Mormonism don’t make it onto this blog.
As such, Rusty is able to avoid a lot of comments that he doesn’t feel like answering, and people never know it. Once he feels he’s given you a good Mormon answer, it is pointless to continue questioning, b/c he just won’t post it. Yep, THAT’S really defending your faith.
Rusty, though I’m sure this won’t surprise you or disappoint you, I’ll steer clear of your blog in the future. It’s WAY too one-sided, and there are too many other good Mormon blogs where they are at least willing to discuss (even argue) the issues.
Larry,
There will be times when God chooses to provide evidence. He has done that in the past, in several instances, usually when the faith of those present is insufficient and they require something more concrete. As in the case of his appearance to Thomas, he said “Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou has believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” ( John 20:29 ).
While the Lord may choose to provide evidence where he may, far be it from me to expect it from him, my aim is to be of such faith that for me it will not be required.
But even in your claim you contradict yourself. You claim that we should seek evidence, but then in the same paragraph say “Christians are not waiting for evidence”. Let me ask you, have you beheld Christ? If we progress line upon line, precept upon precept, then I would suggest that if you have found yourself capable of believing in Christ without the evidence of seeing him, or feeling the prints in his hands and in his side, then you too, are not far from being of sufficient faith to receive an answer as to other things, by nothing more than a witness of the spirit.
Finally, if you’re unaware of all the physical evidences they’re continually finding that support the Book of Mormon, I invite you to stay more current. But for those with sufficient faith, they needn’t wait for indisputable physical evidence before they can start implementing the truth and power of the Book of Mormon in their lives. Those with sufficient faith can start doing so now. Just as I have never seen Christ, yet know he lives, my beliefs are not subject to the crutch of evidence.
And I’m sorry that you’re daughter has the ChickenPox, I’ve had them TWICE as a kid (they say that’s very rare), but I do remember itching like the dickens!
Brad,
As you can see, you CAN see this comment. In actuality (as opposed to over-dramatization), there are only four people who I moderate. You are one of them. There have only ever been about 3 posts that I’ve not allowed through, two of which were yours. Everyone else has their posts go straight to the public, including the Pondering Pastor, who is the most frequent to post contrary views. Why wouldn’t I moderate his posts? Because he does so with respect, and his discussions are always based on principles, doctrine, and when they stop progressing, we both simply agree that we won’t agree, and we move on.
In your case, however, we’ve reached an area where there is no further value you’re adding, yet you continue to rail on and on. That adds no value, and as this blog belongs to me, it is therefore up to me to preserve its value in respect to my other readers.
Any good product manager knows that you have to take control of your product. If you simply respond to every wish of every customer, you end up trying to be everything to everybody but become nothing to anybody. Similarly, if I simply spent all my time responding to a discussion with you that isn’t going anywhere, then that’s time I’m not spending creating new content, adding more value, and discussing things that are progressing.
It’s an exercise in futility, and I’m surprised and disappointed that you esteem my time to be of such little value that you’d think I’d be so quick to waste it.
Any comments that repeatedly come across as just trying to argue, or are anti-Mormon, or are disruptive and disrespectful I will moderate. If it occurs more than once, I them moderate that persons posts from then on.
But as long as one remains respectful and adds value, I simply enjoy the conversations as they happen.
Andrea,
First and foremost, there is nothing in the Book of Mormon that contradicts the Bible. I’m sorry you feel this way, and would love to address anything specific you feel lies in contradiction. Please let me know what it is.
Lastly, the bible isn’t complete, nor does it contain everything we need to know. Nowhere in the bible is there the presumption that “this is all there is” or that “this is all that is necessary”. That’s why god gave prophets.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name.
Rusty, Thank you for your comments regarding Thomas. You asked how I came to know Christ without evidence through touching him such as Thomas. I came to know Jesus as Christ through the evidences that are recorded in his Word. Thomas was never asked to put aside the lack of evidences to receive a witness. So your right, those that come to believe in Jesus Christ through the evidences in His word must be blessed.
Again, God is just, providing evidences to rightfully judge all mankind.
John 12:48-50
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
Most certainly those who believe after evidence are blessed. But as Christ said, more blessed are they who have not seen, and yet believed. When our faith in the Lord is strong enough that we don’t require a sign, then we’re making real progress. Sign-seeking is a little discouraged in the bible
. I’ll do a separate post on this.
I’ve just posted a longish reply to this post on my blog. You can see it directly here:
http://ponderingpastor.wordpress.com/2008/07/29/gods-grace-so-much-more-than-what-mormons-teach/
Pondering Pastor
I was without internet access for a while.
Rusty, I misspoke. In my research, I have discovered that the Book of Mormon does not necessarily contradict the Bible. Rather, it plagarizes it. It is the teaching of Mormonism which contradicts both the Bible AND the Book of Mormon. Sorry, it gets confusing. I am learning a lot in the process of researching this.
Did you know that the Book of Mormon mentions nothing of the folllowing incorrect Mormon doctrines?
1. the Aaronic priesthood
2. the plurality of gods
3. that men can supposedly become gods
4. the three kingdoms
5. polygamy
6. celestial marriage
7. baptism for the dead
8. pre-existence of humans before they come to earth
9. eternal progression
10. God as an exalted man
LOL, I am confused. Mormonism is based off the Book of Mormon, I’m interested to hear what you’ve found in the Book of Mormon that you think our beliefs contradict.
But to say the Book of Mormon plagiarizes the bible is like saying that the books of Mark, Luke, and John plagiarize Mathew because it comes first. Or that other instances in the Bible where they quote prophets and principles of old are instances of plagiarism. But in truth, the word of God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever, so we should expect to find times when he will repeat himself, or teach the same doctrine again. Remember, the people on the American Continent didn’t all have the Bible so it was necessary that they be led just as those on the eastern hemisphere were, by prophets who would receive revelation, and by Christ himself during his visit. The Book of Mormon is another witness of Jesus Christ. Just as the bible prophecies, that the stick of Judah (the bible) and the stick of Joseph (the Book of Mormon) shall become one in thine hand. I’ll elaborate more on this in my upcoming post on the Book of Mormon as the word of God.
But yes, there is much not taught explicitly in the Book of Mormon. Just as there are many principles not taught in the Bible. The Bible does not contain the sum total of all Gods knowledge. Just as the New Testament contains teachings and principles not taught in the Old Testament. That’s how God works, giving us line upon line, precept upon precept. God has not shut his mouth, but rather continues to teach man as soon as they are able to bear more. Such is the purpose, from the ancient days till now, to have prophets and ongoing revelation. That we may all grow in our knowledge and understanding of the principles of exaltation.
I spelling has gone downhill. “Plagiarizes” is what I meant.
The Book of Mormon claims to have been written first between 600 B.C. and A.D. 421. Why, then, would it be identical in so many places to the 1611 King James version, even down to the italicized words? Some instances of this are:
1 Nephi 11:27 copies Luke 3:22
1 Nephi 11:7 copies John 1:34
2 Nephi 2:18 copies Revelation 20:2
2 Nephi 10:16 copies Luke 11:23
Mosiah 18:21 copies Ephesians 4:5
Moroni 7-45 copies 1 Corinthians 13:4-7
Joseph Smith was not a reliable and upstanding kind of guy.
Also, do you really believe that God would scatter his truths all over the place? That doesn’t make sense.
Rusty,
I’m not sure why you Laugh Out Loud at Andrea, when you basically concede her point in your last paragraph:
“But yes, there is much not taught explicitly in the Book of Mormon. …God has not shut his mouth, but rather continues to teach man as soon as they are able to bear more. Such is the purpose, from the ancient days till now, to have prophets and ongoing revelation.”
This is a problem not only with LDS, but with Roman Catholicism and some segments of charismatic/pentecostal Protestantism as well – the allowance for continued revelation beyond the Bible. Just as Rome has been embarrassed by indulgences and Marianism, so the LDS has been embarrassed by polygamy and the Seed of Cain doctrine.
Brigham Young said, “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.” First Counselor Heber C. Kimball said, “You might as well deny Mormonism, and turn away from it, as to oppose the plurality of wives.”
And yet the practice is today condemned. (Although, Apostle Bruce McConkie said, “Obviously the holy practice [polygamy] will commence again after the Second Coming of the Son of Man and the ushering in of the millennium.”)
Funny how God told President Wilford Woodruff to abandon polygamy immediately after the Edmunds-Tucker Act became law (forbidding polygamy). This is the same Woodruff who said, “Do away with that [polygamy], then we must do away with prophets and Apostles, with revelation and the gifts and graces of the Gospel, and finally give up our religion altogether and turn sectarians and do as the world does… We just can’t do that, for God has commanded us to build up His kingdom and to bear our testimony to the nations of the earth, and we are going to do it, come life of come death.”
Did God change His mind? Is God like a man that He should repent?
Andrea – that’s okay, I never was much of a speller either.
In answer to your questions…
Would God scatter his truths all over the place?
Let me ask this… are God’s people all over the place? Is it fathomable that he loves one people more than another? In the bible we read that Jesus said “Other sheep have I that are not of this fold, them also must I bring, and there shall be one voice, and one Shepherd”. Contrary to traditional beliefs, there is nothing in the bible that suggests that it is complete, that it is the only record God will give to the earth, indeed, it speaks itself that God will visit “other sheep”, who shall similarly “hear his voice”. Does it not makes sense that they too, would keep a record of these things?
Why are there such grammatical similarities in the Book of Mormon when it was written much latter than the bible?
Critics of the church often become cynical at this. Yet independent witnesses to the translation process each stated that Joseph Smith did not have any other books, manuscripts, or notes to refer to during his translation. In fact, it’s unclear that Joseph even owned a bible during the time of his translation. Emma recalled the following
So, therefore, where you suggest suspicion, you could see divine intervention. Evidence that Gods hands were in both works, not just the original writing of which, but in the translation as well. If both are the books of God, and both contain the words of God, and both are translated by the power of God, we should be more surprised if we saw no similarities.
Your study of the Book of Mormon
Andrea, I commend you for your interest in the Book of Mormon. It appears to me, however, that you’re trying to learn about the book of Mormon by studying the words of its critics. Is there a particular reason you’re not just reading the book itself? As Krister Stendahl (a Lutheran Pastor) said in regards to researching Mormonism (and which I cover here), you should go to the source, not the critics if you want an accurate picture.
Rusty,
Truly I am more interested in saving people and bringing them to a knowledge of the truth so that they can have freedom in Christ. I do not want to spend my time reading books which I know are not from God. If I study the truth constantly I will be able to spot a counterfeit. I want to be “innocent of evil,” and not have many words in my head which are from evil sources. I believe false religions were designed by demons, and I do not want to give Satan any advantage.
Andrea,
How do you know it’s not from God if you haven’t even read it? What “evidence” have you that the Book of Mormon is not true? If your primary source for information about the Book of Mormon is from its critics, how accurate do you think that information will be?
Jesus himself said that he had “other sheep” which would hear his voice. Why couldn’t they keep a record? The bible also says that the bible is the stick of Judah, but that there shall also be a stick of Joseph, and they shall be one in thy hand.
Clearly it teaches that there is more than one record that we should consider as “one”. I’m confused why you’d have such a predisposition to not believe, when there is absolutely no reference in the bible that would indicate that it would be the only word of God, and indeed has these other references to more works.
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