Comments on: Is there evidence for the Book of Mormon – the answer may surprise you http://mormonconversations.com/is-there-evidence-for-the-book-of-mormon-%e2%80%93-the-answer-may-surprise-you/ Discussions on faith, religion, Mormonism, and other important topics Fri, 19 Feb 2010 17:54:15 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Rusty Lindquist http://mormonconversations.com/is-there-evidence-for-the-book-of-mormon-%e2%80%93-the-answer-may-surprise-you/comment-page-1/#comment-8395 Rusty Lindquist Sun, 18 Oct 2009 16:53:19 +0000 http://mormonconversations.com/?p=1191#comment-8395 I've enjoyed all the comments... err, well, perhaps that last one not so much (it's a bit lacking in substance ;-). Persimmon, thanks for your thoughts, I'm glad you enjoyed the book. I agree with you as well, the broad application of the book is supportive, but I'm unsure whether or not that could actually lead to diffinitive conclusions as to exact identifications of the people. Although, I'm anxious to study it more. Randy, I'd love to talk to you further about the subject, and pick your brain about the archeological conclusions you've reached. To Margaret's point, truth of the Book of Mormon can only be confirmed by divine manifestation, but in terms of hobbies, it's certainly a fascinating path to pursue. Randy, if you've not read 1491 yet, I do recommend it (it is a bitt "zzzzzz" inducing, LOL), and if you have, what do you think? I'll write more on the matter in the near future, including specific things from the book that I found particularly relevant. Best to all... Rusty I’ve enjoyed all the comments… err, well, perhaps that last one not so much (it’s a bit lacking in substance ;-) .

Persimmon, thanks for your thoughts, I’m glad you enjoyed the book. I agree with you as well, the broad application of the book is supportive, but I’m unsure whether or not that could actually lead to diffinitive conclusions as to exact identifications of the people. Although, I’m anxious to study it more.

Randy, I’d love to talk to you further about the subject, and pick your brain about the archeological conclusions you’ve reached. To Margaret’s point, truth of the Book of Mormon can only be confirmed by divine manifestation, but in terms of hobbies, it’s certainly a fascinating path to pursue. Randy, if you’ve not read 1491 yet, I do recommend it (it is a bitt “zzzzzz” inducing, LOL), and if you have, what do you think?

I’ll write more on the matter in the near future, including specific things from the book that I found particularly relevant.

Best to all…

Rusty

]]> By: bob http://mormonconversations.com/is-there-evidence-for-the-book-of-mormon-%e2%80%93-the-answer-may-surprise-you/comment-page-1/#comment-8320 bob Sat, 17 Oct 2009 07:17:00 +0000 http://mormonconversations.com/?p=1191#comment-8320 You're all delusional You’re all delusional

]]> By: Persimmon http://mormonconversations.com/is-there-evidence-for-the-book-of-mormon-%e2%80%93-the-answer-may-surprise-you/comment-page-1/#comment-7593 Persimmon Thu, 01 Oct 2009 16:10:00 +0000 http://mormonconversations.com/?p=1191#comment-7593 Have finished reading 1491. Mann certainly paints a very different picture of the cultures of North and South America before Columbus (and their subsequent demise) than we receive in US public education. The revised picture is one of widespread populations (hearing Carl Sagan saying "millions and millions") which actively shaped land and environment. All in all, an excellent (if slightly zzzzzzzz inducing) read which gives a new appreciation for the prior inhabitants of the two continents. I took it slow and methodical - there's a lot of information to digest, and while the author does make it as exciting as he can, the subject matter is "documentary in print"-like in nature. There have been some speculations here that this work might (accidentally) represent some validations for the Book of Mormon. While it probably does, I'd say it raises at least as many questions about the possibility of pinning the events in the Book of Mormon to any one pre-AD1500 culture specifically. So in broad application, the material is very supportive, but to anyone wishing to "prove" the Book of Mormon account truthful by identifying a specific pre-Columbian civilization, I don't think there will be much luck. There are similarities to many pieces of these cultures, but not any one of them in an overwhelming way. And even with as complete a picture as Mann paints, there's still a remarkable lot we don't know about these people...the book is barely a scratch in the sand of what happened to these folks, and Mann makes that very clear. Have finished reading 1491. Mann certainly paints a very different picture of the cultures of North and South America before Columbus (and their subsequent demise) than we receive in US public education. The revised picture is one of widespread populations (hearing Carl Sagan saying “millions and millions”) which actively shaped land and environment. All in all, an excellent (if slightly zzzzzzzz inducing) read which gives a new appreciation for the prior inhabitants of the two continents. I took it slow and methodical – there’s a lot of information to digest, and while the author does make it as exciting as he can, the subject matter is “documentary in print”-like in nature.

There have been some speculations here that this work might (accidentally) represent some validations for the Book of Mormon. While it probably does, I’d say it raises at least as many questions about the possibility of pinning the events in the Book of Mormon to any one pre-AD1500 culture specifically. So in broad application, the material is very supportive, but to anyone wishing to “prove” the Book of Mormon account truthful by identifying a specific pre-Columbian civilization, I don’t think there will be much luck. There are similarities to many pieces of these cultures, but not any one of them in an overwhelming way. And even with as complete a picture as Mann paints, there’s still a remarkable lot we don’t know about these people…the book is barely a scratch in the sand of what happened to these folks, and Mann makes that very clear.

]]> By: Bob http://mormonconversations.com/is-there-evidence-for-the-book-of-mormon-%e2%80%93-the-answer-may-surprise-you/comment-page-1/#comment-6401 Bob Fri, 11 Sep 2009 23:49:51 +0000 http://mormonconversations.com/?p=1191#comment-6401 Hi... I have a theory about how the scriptures the Mormons hold faith in came to the Americas. If you look at some of the ancient migrations there is one that is about 3600 years old from Egypt. If you remember there were 10 sects or families of the slaves of Egypt that left around this date (1500 bc). Some of them have never been traced. Yet, in the Grand Canyon there is evidence of a culture with a remarkable similarity to that of Egyptian influences. The evidence was discovered in 1901 by an explorer and prospector who traversed the Columbia River through the Canyon. It was reported in the Phoenix Gazette of the same year. He found perfectly carved, perpendicular walls, similar treatment of the dead and carvings of some very interesting nature. This could well have been one of the lost tribes out of the exodus from the rule of Ramses. It has been shown to be possible to cross the Atlantic via the marine technology of the ancient Egyptions (Ra expedition). One will also note that the Hopi people speak of a rather oppressive culture immigrating to the Americas and using them a slaves or lower class citizens. They were taught to dig the canals we see today in Arizona that used to irrigate the incredible fields of corn they were taught to cultivate. The irrigation canals are identical to the structure of those found in Egypt. I'm not saying the immigrants were "Egyptian" per sey... I"m suggesting they brought with them the monotheistic ways of their leader... Akenaten, husband of Nefertiti... the leader that took Egypt from a multi-deity culture to a monotheistic way of life... however short lived. He was later written as being the man known as "Moses". Moses is an Egyptian nick name and term of endearment translating to "little one". As you may remember Akenaten was disfigured somewhat in his morphology. But all of these fragmented facts seemed to point to the reason the Mormon church feels there is a connection to the Americas and their prophets... I believe the true history of the various migrations to our continents would certainly help to explain the present day doctrine of the wonderful Mormon people. Thank you, Bob. Hi… I have a theory about how the scriptures the Mormons hold faith in came to the Americas. If you look at some of the ancient migrations there is one that is about 3600 years old from Egypt. If you remember there were 10 sects or families of the slaves of Egypt that left around this date (1500 bc). Some of them have never been traced. Yet, in the Grand Canyon there is evidence of a culture with a remarkable similarity to that of Egyptian influences. The evidence was discovered in 1901 by an explorer and prospector who traversed the Columbia River through the Canyon. It was reported in the Phoenix Gazette of the same year. He found perfectly carved, perpendicular walls, similar treatment of the dead and carvings of some very interesting nature. This could well have been one of the lost tribes out of the exodus from the rule of Ramses. It has been shown to be possible to cross the Atlantic via the marine technology of the ancient Egyptions (Ra expedition). One will also note that the Hopi people speak of a rather oppressive culture immigrating to the Americas and using them a slaves or lower class citizens. They were taught to dig the canals we see today in Arizona that used to irrigate the incredible fields of corn they were taught to cultivate. The irrigation canals are identical to the structure of those found in Egypt.

I’m not saying the immigrants were “Egyptian” per sey… I”m suggesting they brought with them the monotheistic ways of their leader… Akenaten, husband of Nefertiti… the leader that took Egypt from a multi-deity culture to a monotheistic way of life… however short lived. He was later written as being the man known as “Moses”. Moses is an Egyptian nick name and term of endearment translating to “little one”. As you may remember Akenaten was disfigured somewhat in his morphology.

But all of these fragmented facts seemed to point to the reason the Mormon church feels there is a connection to the Americas and their prophets… I believe the true history of the various migrations to our continents would certainly help to explain the present day doctrine of the wonderful Mormon people.

Thank you, Bob.

]]> By: Randy http://mormonconversations.com/is-there-evidence-for-the-book-of-mormon-%e2%80%93-the-answer-may-surprise-you/comment-page-1/#comment-5244 Randy Sun, 23 Aug 2009 04:48:32 +0000 http://mormonconversations.com/?p=1191#comment-5244 One more comment. I would like to add a couple of thoughts to this discussion. Christians have believed in the Bible for close to 1000 years without any archaeological evidence. People had faith in what they were taught and read. It wasn't until the past 200 years that we were just looking for evidences to prove if the stories in the Bible were true or not. And because we are now in a scientific age and seeking proof of our beliefs is pretty much ingrained in our generation we believe we need physical proof of someone's faith. No one has ever found absolute proof that God exists and yet some choose to believe in Him and others won't because of lack of evidence of a God. The reason I chose to believe the Book of Mormon is a true record is because I believe I was prepared to be introduced to the new ideas presented in it. I already believed that people came over from the Middle East and through my studies in various religions I discovered the common elements in each of them. I wanted a Church that Christ started. I look at studying Biblical and Book of Mormon archaeology as a puzzle that needs to be put back together. I have faith that I can put it all together with God's help and I know that the puzzle pieces are real. I have a Spirit that can guide me and help me to put all the pieces together to form the true picture of God's hand in history. The pieces are very small and numerous so it requires a lot of time and patience and mistakes will be made. It's like a black and white picture that suddenly was colorized or fuzzy photo with no information on it that suddenly became clear. I can see the people but not sure who they are and what they are doing. Once the photo became clear I then discovered through research that these people were once my grandparents and I learned their names. They are dancing at their wedding with other relatives. And through more research I learned more about my grandparents and their life and who the names the other people in the photo. You have a sense of belonging and you learn more about yourself and why you are the way you are. I am not sure if I am making any sense but I hope you get the point. You don't need evidence to believe in something but it become more real and personal to you as you continue to putting all the pieces together. One more comment. I would like to add a couple of thoughts to this discussion. Christians have believed in the Bible for close to 1000 years without any archaeological evidence. People had faith in what they were taught and read. It wasn’t until the past 200 years that we were just looking for evidences to prove if the stories in the Bible were true or not. And because we are now in a scientific age and seeking proof of our beliefs is pretty much ingrained in our generation we believe we need physical proof of someone’s faith. No one has ever found absolute proof that God exists and yet some choose to believe in Him and others won’t because of lack of evidence of a God. The reason I chose to believe the Book of Mormon is a true record is because I believe I was prepared to be introduced to the new ideas presented in it. I already believed that people came over from the Middle East and through my studies in various religions I discovered the common elements in each of them. I wanted a Church that Christ started. I look at studying Biblical and Book of Mormon archaeology as a puzzle that needs to be put back together. I have faith that I can put it all together with God’s help and I know that the puzzle pieces are real. I have a Spirit that can guide me and help me to put all the pieces together to form the true picture of God’s hand in history. The pieces are very small and numerous so it requires a lot of time and patience and mistakes will be made. It’s like a black and white picture that suddenly was colorized or fuzzy photo with no information on it that suddenly became clear. I can see the people but not sure who they are and what they are doing. Once the photo became clear I then discovered through research that these people were once my grandparents and I learned their names. They are dancing at their wedding with other relatives. And through more research I learned more about my grandparents and their life and who the names the other people in the photo. You have a sense of belonging and you learn more about yourself and why you are the way you are. I am not sure if I am making any sense but I hope you get the point. You don’t need evidence to believe in something but it become more real and personal to you as you continue to putting all the pieces together.

]]> By: Randy http://mormonconversations.com/is-there-evidence-for-the-book-of-mormon-%e2%80%93-the-answer-may-surprise-you/comment-page-1/#comment-5237 Randy Sun, 23 Aug 2009 03:55:09 +0000 http://mormonconversations.com/?p=1191#comment-5237 Back again. Hi, Rusty! If you would some historical information that I have found online that supports the Book of Mormon please e-mail me at uft at yahoo.com. I have been digging around the internet for the past 5 years for anything concerning the Book of Mormon lands and I found quite a bit I would like to share. I also have a theory that is a lot different than what FARMS have (which I don't agree with at all) and Wayne May's theories in part. They don't include all of Joseph Smith's comments on where the Nephite lands are. Some of these sources are from non-Mormon books and done by government people. I pieced together all the evidences and information I could find and placed them on a map. A light bulb went off when I saw a pattern on the map. Central to my theories which very few people take into account is the migrations that took place. This is my favorite subject and I could talk on this subject for hours. If you would like to learn more please e-mail me. Back again. Hi, Rusty! If you would some historical information that I have found online that supports the Book of Mormon please e-mail me at uft at yahoo.com. I have been digging around the internet for the past 5 years for anything concerning the Book of Mormon lands and I found quite a bit I would like to share. I also have a theory that is a lot different than what FARMS have (which I don’t agree with at all) and Wayne May’s theories in part. They don’t include all of Joseph Smith’s comments on where the Nephite lands are. Some of these sources are from non-Mormon books and done by government people. I pieced together all the evidences and information I could find and placed them on a map. A light bulb went off when I saw a pattern on the map. Central to my theories which very few people take into account is the migrations that took place. This is my favorite subject and I could talk on this subject for hours. If you would like to learn more please e-mail me.

]]> By: Randy http://mormonconversations.com/is-there-evidence-for-the-book-of-mormon-%e2%80%93-the-answer-may-surprise-you/comment-page-1/#comment-5235 Randy Sun, 23 Aug 2009 02:33:37 +0000 http://mormonconversations.com/?p=1191#comment-5235 If anyone would like a free online Book of Mormon please visit my website. I would comment more on this later on. If anyone would like a free online Book of Mormon please visit my website. I would comment more on this later on.

]]> By: Marcus http://mormonconversations.com/is-there-evidence-for-the-book-of-mormon-%e2%80%93-the-answer-may-surprise-you/comment-page-1/#comment-4500 Marcus Sun, 09 Aug 2009 19:13:45 +0000 http://mormonconversations.com/?p=1191#comment-4500 I look for evidence such as: How many hospitals has the Book of Mormon built compared to an atheist? I look for evidence such as: How many hospitals has the Book of Mormon built compared to an atheist?

]]> By: Margaret http://mormonconversations.com/is-there-evidence-for-the-book-of-mormon-%e2%80%93-the-answer-may-surprise-you/comment-page-1/#comment-2898 Margaret Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:51:40 +0000 http://mormonconversations.com/?p=1191#comment-2898 I read the link Greg posted. Thanks! There are many paths that lead us away from the core of the Gospel. Spending too much time on things for which there is no definitive answer, is one of them. Some things are important for us to understand, and some just don't matter. I read the link Greg posted. Thanks! There are many paths that lead us away from the core of the Gospel. Spending too much time on things for which there is no definitive answer, is one of them. Some things are important for us to understand, and some just don’t matter.

]]> By: Margaret http://mormonconversations.com/is-there-evidence-for-the-book-of-mormon-%e2%80%93-the-answer-may-surprise-you/comment-page-1/#comment-2808 Margaret Sat, 27 Jun 2009 17:49:11 +0000 http://mormonconversations.com/?p=1191#comment-2808 This is fascinating. From what I learned at the FAIR Conference last summer, many of the Book Of Mormon events likely took place in Meso America. After the final battles, Moroni had plenty of time to make it to the upstate NY area to bury the plates safely in the Hill Cumorah. It would be nice to have strong evidence, for those who need it, but I find that the witness of the Holy Ghost is much more valuable. Some things can only be learned through the spirit. This is fascinating. From what I learned at the FAIR Conference last summer, many of the Book Of Mormon events likely took place in Meso America. After the final battles, Moroni had plenty of time to make it to the upstate NY area to bury the plates safely in the Hill Cumorah.

It would be nice to have strong evidence, for those who need it, but I find that the witness of the Holy Ghost is much more valuable. Some things can only be learned through the spirit.

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