“Wait, in one sentence you say his grace is a free gift, given truly without respect to persons, and in the next sentence you contradict that statement by saing that Mormons aren’t saved. See my comments below.”

Wow. That’s asinine, Rusty, and I think you know it. You’re too smart to have completely misinterpreted what I said.

How are these two things contradictions (“God is no respecter of persons” & “Mormons aren’t saved”)? If I were to have said, “God is not a respecter of persons & God doesn’t save Christ-rejecting child molesters”, would you respond, “Aha! See, God IS a respecter of persons, because He rejects those who reject Him!” [And no, I don't believe Mormons and child molesters are morally equivalent; I'm simply using an extreme example to draw out a point.] Of course, you would not, because a “respecter of persons” has nothing to do with God rejecting those who reject Him, but speaks to God not giving grace to Jews only, or the wise only, or the successful only, etc., but all kinds and types of persons.

“There are people that have had the chance to hear the gospel, who have been confronted with the Book of Mormon, and the Prophet Joseph Smith, and who have turned away, only to embrace them at a later time, at a time when their lives were more suitably prepared for it.”

And, of course, there are those (like me) who have heard the Mormon message countless times (and will continue to hear it) and will continue to reject it. So we are again back to the question: Why?

“Take for instance Paul from the bible. Was he intrinsically worse than the believers because of his initial refusal to believe? Nope, he just wasn’t prepared.”

Really? You believe Paul’s conversion came on the Damascus road, because he was suddenly “prepared” in a way that he was not previously? How so? Paul was en route to Damascus with letters from the High Priest to persecute more Christians when Christ knocked him on the ground and took his sight (Acts 9). Paul did not prepare himself, Christ acted on Paul, changing his heart and causing him to follow and preach Christ, instead of persecuting His followers.

Rusty, Paul is probably the worst example you could have offered to support the notion that an individual prepares himself for the Gospel.

“You say “I did not desire God until He desired me”. Which means to say I don’t believe as you do because God does not desire me.”

I have no idea whether or not God desires you savingly, Rusty. Time will tell, and I have great hope and faith that God can save any, even you, Rusty! After all, God is no respecter of persons. He saves even Mormons (out of Mormonism, of course). ; )

“And in the same breath you state that I am not saved. Yet you talk about His sufficiency. You say that in the “…gospel of Christ that is a free gift of divine grace, given truly without any respect to persons.”

I’m not sure how you reconcile those statements, in one breath stating that I’m not saved, and in the other that grace is given to all, for free, that it is sufficient.”

I never said God’s saving grace is given to all. You still fail to understand what “respecter of persons” actually means. It does not mean that God saves all (which it would have to mean in the sense in which you seem to understand the phrase), but that God saves whom He wills to save, and is not bound to save any particular types or kinds of people – Jews, Gentiles, whites, blacks, men, women, wise, foolish, rich, poor, etc.

I don’t expect to convince you of my position here, but hopefully I’ve made the distinction I’m trying to make clearer.

God Bless

You say “I did not desire God until He desired me”. Which means to say I don’t believe as you do because God does not desire me.

And in the same breath you state that I am not saved. Yet you talk about His sufficiency. You say that in the “…gospel of Christ that is a free gift of divine grace, given truly without any respect to persons.”

I’m not sure how you reconcile those statements, in one breath stating that I’m not saved, and in the other that grace is given to all, for free, that it is sufficient.

The only way for that to work (for me to not be saved under your paradigm) is to say that his grace is insufficient, for I am not saved, but you are.

But if that is the case, what makes that distinction? How are you saved and I am not? You say it’s because you embrace Christ, yet I embrace Christ. So what causes you to be saved and not me? The implication is that it’s the decisions you make (to believe, to act, whatever), whereas my decisions lead me to not be saved. In short, we’re saying the same thing – belief is not enough, our decisions also determine our exaltation.

Take for example marketing. A good marketer knows that you must send a message not once but dozens and dozens of times, waiting for that perfect moment when the person that picks up your ad is perfectly prepared. They may have seen it even hundreds of times before, but not until they see it at just the right moment in their lives, does the message hit them the way it was intended. In short, there are often hundreds upon hundreds of “failures” before you get a win.

There are people that have had the chance to hear the gospel, who have been confronted with the Book of Mormon, and the Prophet Joseph Smith, and who have turned away, only to embrace them at a later time, at a time when their lives were more suitably prepared for it.

As such, God, in his infinite wisdom, is the only one that knows when one person has had ample opportunity. Until that time, and for those of us who endeavor to teach His gospel, it is our lot to simply keep trying, keep teaching, keep reaching out. For the time just might come, when that one who so vigorously rejected it before, will be prepared to accept it in the future.

Take for instance Paul from the bible. Was he intrinsically worse than the believers because of his initial refusal to believe? Nope, he just wasn’t prepared. He who was their harshest critic soon became their most dedicated ally. But our own individual circumstances needn’t be nearly so polarized as Paul’s for the principle to still apply.

As such, even those who regularly refute my endeavors to teach the truth, I continue to testify to, to reach out to, and to be patient with, for who am I to say that the time won’t come when they too, will become Mormonisms most dedicated ally.

I’ve also added additional comments under some of the posts above, where appropriate, to better keep them segregated.

For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

It’s mistaken to interpret this as justification for the doctrine that all man are born into sin. Here he’s simply saying that man is not justified through the law of moses, alone, but through righteousness by faith in Christ, made possible through his atonement. This is not litterally saying that no one does good. The Bible itself shows this, for we are encouraged to “become perfect”. Is that good? Just a little. To say that this is explicitly litteral would be to accept the lack of opposition, if there was no good, then there would be no evil. This is simply saying that the law doesn’t justify man, rather faith in Christ through the atonement.

Anyone who believes they will be “just fine” before God at the judgment if they “live the Gospel” will most certainly not be fine. The Gospel is not of works, but of faith. The Gospel is not a divine quid pro quo (IF you – man – do this, THEN I – God – will do that). No one will ever make God his debtor, owing him something for accomplishing some works. Works are the fruit and evidence of genuine faith and regeneration – they do not produce or in any way work for this faith and regeneration.

You say that this is not a gospel of works. Which is odd, since all of the commandments are things that we must DO, and he says that we shall be judged according to our works, and that by their works ye shall know them, that we should be doers, and not hearers only, that we should become perfect, that we will be rendered according to our deeds, and that faith without works is dead, that he shall render to every man according to his deeds, etc. Indeed, the gospel of Christ is one of works, even if you don’t accept them as a component of exaltation (which you must, if you say that you are saved and we are not). It’s the same thing I have covered extensively with all the scriptures here. For this to be true you’ll have to find alternate explinations to these seemingly obvious scriptures (which coincidentally, none have endeavored to do, even though the post has been there for two months).

Run to Christ! Trust in Him and His righteousness alone!

God Bless

I hope that someday you, too, will understand the Gospel as I do. We “Mormons” will be just fine, if we live the Gospel as we understand it.

I’m saying, according to the Mormon view of free agency, the only way to explain the difference between you, one who studied, pondered, prayed and embraced Mormonism, and me, one who studied, pondered, prayed and rejected Mormonism, is something within you that is better than that which is within me.

Not necessarily. I address this too in a dedicated comment below.

If God is not the deciding factor in who is saved/exalted and who is not, but man (and his free agency) is (which is the Mormon view), then the only way to describe the difference between you and I is that you are in some way superior to me or more suited for the Mormon gospel.

I don’t mean to say that you consciously live day to day believing yourself to be superior to me and others like me, but that is the only logical conclusion to draw from your theology.

I simply mean to contrast this with the Gospel of Christ that is a free gift of divine grace, given truly without any respect to persons. I am saved, and you are not (as a Mormon), not because I was/am more spiritually atuned or intelectually capable of grasping the Gospel, but because God graciously opened my eyes to the truth and beauty of Christ and His accomplishments for me on the Cross.

Wait, in one sentence you say his grace is a free gift, given truly without respect to persons, and in the next sentence you contradict that statement by saing that Mormons aren’t saved. See my comments below.

This gives me great hope that God can and will do this for you, Randy and countless other Mormons.

P.S. It’s Rusty, LOL

God Bless

We know that God is no respector of persons. He loves all of his children equally. All races, cultures and creeds. However, the ones who follow his commandments more closely, and serve his children the most, are the ones He will reward the most. People like Mother Teresa are sure to gain His highest rewards. Few reach her level of righteousness.

I feel that accepting the fullness of the gospel shows us the way, but it’s what we do with our knowledge that determines where we go. If I sit at home at my computer all day, I won’t get very far. I have to get out amd find things I can do to help others. to get where I want to go. In other words, I need to BE the Lord’s hands.