Comments on: Holiness to the Lord, the story of John Rowe Moyle http://mormonconversations.com/holiness-to-the-lord-the-story-of-john-rowe-moyle/ Discussions on faith, religion, Mormonism, and other important topics Fri, 10 Feb 2012 00:21:46 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1 By: Travis b http://mormonconversations.com/holiness-to-the-lord-the-story-of-john-rowe-moyle/#comment-22035 Travis b Tue, 11 Oct 2011 03:09:41 +0000 http://ongofu.wordpress.com/?p=797#comment-22035 John Moyle is laid to rest in Alpine city cemetery. His sight is marked with a head stone he carved himself. my aunt is a direct descendant of John R Moyle and we have heard this story many times long before brother Uchtdorf told of it. I beleive it is in a journal passage that my aunt may have a copy of. There is also lots of info on John R Moyle at a fort in alpine called Moyle park John Moyle is laid to rest in Alpine city cemetery. His sight is marked with a head stone he carved himself. my aunt is a direct descendant of John R Moyle and we have heard this story many times long before brother Uchtdorf told of it. I beleive it is in a journal passage that my aunt may have a copy of. There is also lots of info on John R Moyle at a fort in alpine called Moyle park

]]> By: Paul Scherbel http://mormonconversations.com/holiness-to-the-lord-the-story-of-john-rowe-moyle/#comment-19920 Paul Scherbel Sun, 07 Aug 2011 12:48:23 +0000 http://ongofu.wordpress.com/?p=797#comment-19920 Where was John Moyle's body laid to rest? Where was John Moyle’s body laid to rest?

]]> By: jodironi http://mormonconversations.com/holiness-to-the-lord-the-story-of-john-rowe-moyle/#comment-19350 jodironi Mon, 18 Jul 2011 18:08:33 +0000 http://ongofu.wordpress.com/?p=797#comment-19350 JRM was a stone mason and consequently would have done a portion of his work at the stone quarry. It is believed that many of the times that his work was required at the temple that he would hike to the quarry and then hitch a wagon ride to the temple site. You are correct that he would have been too old to complete the carving on the side of the temple. John left the completion date empty and it is apparent in the different style of carving. He was dead before the completion date. He was a man of true grit. He was a man of faith. He loved the Lord and was faithful to the end in his call for service. Whether you believe this or not is not important. I have a copy of his patriarchal blessing and that is more cherished than his honored story of sacrifice. He loved God. He knew he was called to further this great work and he did. There is no proof of Joseph Smith and his first vision either. But it did in fact occur. Logic does not require faith. All truth can be taught by the Holy Ghost. For it will teach us the truth of all things. John loved his family. He did what he knew he must to protect and provide for them. Story set aside. He has an amazingly bright lasting legacy that lives on in his descendants. Your viewpoints have intrigued me. I will continue to read and ponder on this man and his example. JRM was a stone mason and consequently would have done a portion of his work at the stone quarry. It is believed that many of the times that his work was required at the temple that he would hike to the quarry and then hitch a wagon ride to the temple site. You are correct that he would have been too old to complete the carving on the side of the temple. John left the completion date empty and it is apparent in the different style of carving. He was dead before the completion date. He was a man of true grit. He was a man of faith. He loved the Lord and was faithful to the end in his call for service. Whether you believe this or not is not important. I have a copy of his patriarchal blessing and that is more cherished than his honored story of sacrifice. He loved God. He knew he was called to further this great work and he did. There is no proof of Joseph Smith and his first vision either. But it did in fact occur. Logic does not require faith. All truth can be taught by the Holy Ghost. For it will teach us the truth of all things. John loved his family. He did what he knew he must to protect and provide for them. Story set aside. He has an amazingly bright lasting legacy that lives on in his descendants. Your viewpoints have intrigued me. I will continue to read and ponder on this man and his example.

]]> By: Robert http://mormonconversations.com/holiness-to-the-lord-the-story-of-john-rowe-moyle/#comment-19144 Robert Sun, 10 Jul 2011 06:32:58 +0000 http://ongofu.wordpress.com/?p=797#comment-19144 I am a direct descendant of JRM. I am 41 years old. When I was growing up, my father told me often about the story of JRM. I remember going to the old homestead in Alpine when I was 8 years old or younger and seeing the old fort that JRM built to defend his home against the indians. It was a pile of rubble then, but has since been restored. I was told JRM's story then, and the memory of it lives on in the lives of my own children. I can't say that I have ever seen actual documentation of this story, but I knew of his story well before 1978, the earliest documented time that this story was made public. The story has remained consistent, has not been embellished, and has not been distorted over the years. It has become richer to me with the telling of it, but has never gotten bigger than what is being told of him today. It is true, JRM was also a polygamist. Quite frankly, I am glad he was. If he hadn't been, I wouldn't be here confirming his story, since I am descended from his second wife. Thanks for this thread. Keep up the great work. I am a direct descendant of JRM. I am 41 years old. When I was growing up, my father told me often about the story of JRM. I remember going to the old homestead in Alpine when I was 8 years old or younger and seeing the old fort that JRM built to defend his home against the indians. It was a pile of rubble then, but has since been restored.

I was told JRM’s story then, and the memory of it lives on in the lives of my own children. I can’t say that I have ever seen actual documentation of this story, but I knew of his story well before 1978, the earliest documented time that this story was made public. The story has remained consistent, has not been embellished, and has not been distorted over the years. It has become richer to me with the telling of it, but has never gotten bigger than what is being told of him today.

It is true, JRM was also a polygamist. Quite frankly, I am glad he was. If he hadn’t been, I wouldn’t be here confirming his story, since I am descended from his second wife.

Thanks for this thread. Keep up the great work.

]]> By: Ronda Love http://mormonconversations.com/holiness-to-the-lord-the-story-of-john-rowe-moyle/#comment-18188 Ronda Love Sat, 11 Jun 2011 23:47:36 +0000 http://ongofu.wordpress.com/?p=797#comment-18188 I should say that I took twelve teenage girls and 12 adults to walk this great twenty two mile walk. They were strong and courageous and energetic and inspirational and did not complain. Twenty two miles is not really too far; it is definitely hard, but it is just the right kind of hard to push someone outside their comfort zone and find out what they are really made of. :D Happy Day, all is well. I should say that I took twelve teenage girls and 12 adults to walk this great twenty two mile walk. They were strong and courageous and energetic and inspirational and did not complain. Twenty two miles is not really too far; it is definitely hard, but it is just the right kind of hard to push someone outside their comfort zone and find out what they are really made of. :D Happy Day, all is well.

]]> By: Ronda Love http://mormonconversations.com/holiness-to-the-lord-the-story-of-john-rowe-moyle/#comment-18187 Ronda Love Sat, 11 Jun 2011 23:43:40 +0000 http://ongofu.wordpress.com/?p=797#comment-18187 Well, I did it. I walked the twenty two mile route from the Oquirrah Mountain Temple to the Salt Lake Temple and it was very inspiring. You can say what ever you want about the story, but I would just like to say that I hope I live the kind of life that will inspire others to want to do great things, especially my own children. Well, I did it. I walked the twenty two mile route from the Oquirrah Mountain Temple to the Salt Lake Temple and it was very inspiring. You can say what ever you want about the story, but I would just like to say that I hope I live the kind of life that will inspire others to want to do great things, especially my own children.

]]> By: Ronda Love http://mormonconversations.com/holiness-to-the-lord-the-story-of-john-rowe-moyle/#comment-17659 Ronda Love Sun, 29 May 2011 04:41:26 +0000 http://ongofu.wordpress.com/?p=797#comment-17659 I as a Young Women President have decided to take my girls on a 22 mile walk from the Oquirrah Temple to the Jordan River Temple then on to the Salt Lake Temple where their parents will meet them to take them home. I was inspired to do this because of hearing of others who had done similar things and I feel like it is important to challenge our youth to do hard things. This story is nice to tell them, but there are a whole list of other good reasons to have them do the walk rather than to reenact the events of this story. To me, it is sad that there is so much controversy being discussed over this story. We are not able to talk to brother John Moyle to verify any of it, and if he kept as good a record as some people we may never really know the whole truth about it, but it does not benefit anyone to drag good names through the mud just to prove that someone else might be wrong, and that we may be right. We can not possibly understand why some things happened the way they did back in the day of President Joseph Smith or Brigham Young because their ways are not our ways, and they were still learning, as are we. And every Prophet is still just a man; even though he is a servant of the Lord with all the Priesthood keys, he is still able to make mistakes and learn and improve his understanding. That is the way communication through the spirit works we don't receive things spell out in black and white step by step instructions. Many a good principle can be taught through a good story regardless of the embellishment that may or may not be included; after all, it is up to each of us to seek guidance through the spirit to teach us the truthfulness of the principles we are taught. And enduring a 22 mile walk will leave a great impression on my Young Women, and just being willing to participate because they have been asked to is a great example of obedience and cooperation that is a good character builder. Thank you Brother Lindquist for making this story available to me. I as a Young Women President have decided to take my girls on a 22 mile walk from the Oquirrah Temple to the Jordan River Temple then on to the Salt Lake Temple where their parents will meet them to take them home. I was inspired to do this because of hearing of others who had done similar things and I feel like it is important to challenge our youth to do hard things. This story is nice to tell them, but there are a whole list of other good reasons to have them do the walk rather than to reenact the events of this story. To me, it is sad that there is so much controversy being discussed over this story. We are not able to talk to brother John Moyle to verify any of it, and if he kept as good a record as some people we may never really know the whole truth about it, but it does not benefit anyone to drag good names through the mud just to prove that someone else might be wrong, and that we may be right.
We can not possibly understand why some things happened the way they did back in the day of President Joseph Smith or Brigham Young because their ways are not our ways, and they were still learning, as are we. And every Prophet is still just a man; even though he is a servant of the Lord with all the Priesthood keys, he is still able to make mistakes and learn and improve his understanding. That is the way communication through the spirit works we don’t receive things spell out in black and white step by step instructions.
Many a good principle can be taught through a good story regardless of the embellishment that may or may not be included; after all, it is up to each of us to seek guidance through the spirit to teach us the truthfulness of the principles we are taught.
And enduring a 22 mile walk will leave a great impression on my Young Women, and just being willing to participate because they have been asked to is a great example of obedience and cooperation that is a good character builder.
Thank you Brother Lindquist for making this story available to me.

]]> By: John Rowe Moyle 1808 – 1889 http://mormonconversations.com/holiness-to-the-lord-the-story-of-john-rowe-moyle/#comment-15962 John Rowe Moyle 1808 – 1889 Wed, 30 Mar 2011 09:13:24 +0000 http://ongofu.wordpress.com/?p=797#comment-15962 [...] John Rowe Moyle was born in Wedron, Cornwall, England on 22 Feb 1808 and died in Alpine, Utah on 15 Jan 1889. [...] [...] John Rowe Moyle was born in Wedron, Cornwall, England on 22 Feb 1808 and died in Alpine, Utah on 15 Jan 1889. [...]

]]> By: Michelle http://mormonconversations.com/holiness-to-the-lord-the-story-of-john-rowe-moyle/#comment-15897 Michelle Mon, 28 Mar 2011 19:59:54 +0000 http://ongofu.wordpress.com/?p=797#comment-15897 This was posted on the family genealogical website in 2008 (a copy & paste): "Authored by: Derk Phelps on Sunday, November 09 2008 @ 04:42 PM MST Does anyone have any documented sources for the JRM temple inscription story? The earliest story we have is dated about 1978 from a Theodore M. Burton talk, nothing else. All references we have found relate to this talk." (By the way, Rusty....the "M." in Burton's name is for Moyle....so he must be a descendant....but no one can find where he got this story from. Maybe HE had a family journal containing it?) Many family researchers have tried to find the sources for this story (and have done follow up posts to the original one above), but none have been found as of this date. And...just because some family members today believe the story, proves nothing. Nor does the fact that there's been a movie made. But, I'm sure you already know this. I'm sure Moyle was a wonderful, faithful man and I'm sure going to the museum, etc. would be extremely interesting. I completely respect your right to believe what you choose. But, I think it's wrong to start having young teenagers walk this distance based on a story that isn't even factual. Yes, Moyle was a stone cutter who worked on the temple. But the rest of this story cannot be verified and logic tells anyone that much of it has been embellished to make it more faith promoting. There were even long periods of time (years) when no one was even working on the temple (this is documented in Brigham Young's writings and other documents). As far as the wives of Joseph Smith, the church has had to recognize this to be true now even though they do not publicly discuss it (but his 33 wives are all posted on lds.org now) and at least 9 of them were teenagers when Joseph married them (some as young as 14) and 11 of them were wives of other men when Joseph married them (this is all well documented in William Clayton's sealing records and journals and also in other contemporary records...thus the church has had to recognize them as truth). Most of these marriages were done behind the back of Emma (these young teenage girls were nearly all living with the Smith's helping Emma with housework and her children), and also behind the backs of the husbands of the married women (many of the men were sent out on missions by Joseph and this occurred while they were gone). It's all very well documented. I'm not an anti-Mormon for sure....but I am pro-Truth. I'm an active member of the church, BIC, and married in the temple. But I just wish the true church history would be discussed instead of white washed and I wish that our leaders would trust the members enough to be honest with us. My testimony is strong enough to know the real truth, accept it, and still bear strong witness of the truthfulness of the gospel. Here's a good website listing the wives of Joseph Smith (with good references....most available through Deseret Books): http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/ This was posted on the family genealogical website in 2008 (a copy & paste):
“Authored by: Derk Phelps on Sunday, November 09 2008 @ 04:42 PM MST
Does anyone have any documented sources for the JRM temple inscription story?
The earliest story we have is dated about 1978 from a Theodore M. Burton talk, nothing else. All references we have found relate to this talk.”

(By the way, Rusty….the “M.” in Burton’s name is for Moyle….so he must be a descendant….but no one can find where he got this story from. Maybe HE had a family journal containing it?)

Many family researchers have tried to find the sources for this story (and have done follow up posts to the original one above), but none have been found as of this date.

And…just because some family members today believe the story, proves nothing. Nor does the fact that there’s been a movie made. But, I’m sure you already know this. I’m sure Moyle was a wonderful, faithful man and I’m sure going to the museum, etc. would be extremely interesting.

I completely respect your right to believe what you choose. But, I think it’s wrong to start having young teenagers walk this distance based on a story that isn’t even factual. Yes, Moyle was a stone cutter who worked on the temple. But the rest of this story cannot be verified and logic tells anyone that much of it has been embellished to make it more faith promoting. There were even long periods of time (years) when no one was even working on the temple (this is documented in Brigham Young’s writings and other documents).

As far as the wives of Joseph Smith, the church has had to recognize this to be true now even though they do not publicly discuss it (but his 33 wives are all posted on lds.org now) and at least 9 of them were teenagers when Joseph married them (some as young as 14) and 11 of them were wives of other men when Joseph married them (this is all well documented in William Clayton’s sealing records and journals and also in other contemporary records…thus the church has had to recognize them as truth). Most of these marriages were done behind the back of Emma (these young teenage girls were nearly all living with the Smith’s helping Emma with housework and her children), and also behind the backs of the husbands of the married women (many of the men were sent out on missions by Joseph and this occurred while they were gone). It’s all very well documented. I’m not an anti-Mormon for sure….but I am pro-Truth. I’m an active member of the church, BIC, and married in the temple. But I just wish the true church history would be discussed instead of white washed and I wish that our leaders would trust the members enough to be honest with us. My testimony is strong enough to know the real truth, accept it, and still bear strong witness of the truthfulness of the gospel.

Here’s a good website listing the wives of Joseph Smith (with good references….most available through Deseret Books):
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/

]]> By: Rusty Lindquist http://mormonconversations.com/holiness-to-the-lord-the-story-of-john-rowe-moyle/#comment-15895 Rusty Lindquist Mon, 28 Mar 2011 18:26:02 +0000 http://ongofu.wordpress.com/?p=797#comment-15895 Michelle Your last comment was removed. There are few things I like more than really good discussions, even when people disagree with me. But once it becomes silly and disrespectful I simply remove them. That's just trolling, and I simply delete posts like that. Of course accuracy is valuable to me, so if you can point me to specific locations to verify your claims about the Moyle family, I'd be happy to research it further. But I'm not simply going to change my mind because of a random post on my blog. Now that would be silly. Especially because several of the Moyle family have posted on my blog and we've discussed Brother Moyle, and the farm of his that is now open for visitors to go and see and hear this story themselves. Your random claim that they think it didn't happen seems to be a bit contradictory to so much else. Add to that your clear anti-mormon intent (especially evident in your last comment), and you're silly to think I'd just believe you without research. There's now a DVD out about it (not from the church), which I assume you'll claim is fantasized too. Now, where is it exactly that I can go verify your claims? Michelle

Your last comment was removed. There are few things I like more than really good discussions, even when people disagree with me. But once it becomes silly and disrespectful I simply remove them. That’s just trolling, and I simply delete posts like that.

Of course accuracy is valuable to me, so if you can point me to specific locations to verify your claims about the Moyle family, I’d be happy to research it further. But I’m not simply going to change my mind because of a random post on my blog. Now that would be silly. Especially because several of the Moyle family have posted on my blog and we’ve discussed Brother Moyle, and the farm of his that is now open for visitors to go and see and hear this story themselves. Your random claim that they think it didn’t happen seems to be a bit contradictory to so much else.

Add to that your clear anti-mormon intent (especially evident in your last comment), and you’re silly to think I’d just believe you without research. There’s now a DVD out about it (not from the church), which I assume you’ll claim is fantasized too.

Now, where is it exactly that I can go verify your claims?

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