What do Mormons believe – part 7

by Rusty Lindquist on January 25, 2011 · 22 comments

(Disclaimer: These views are all based on my knowledge and interpretation as an active Latter Day Saint, or “Mormon”, only the actual article of faith I list should be considered “official”.  Still, I try to be accurate and do my homework 😉

We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

7th Article of Faith

These gifts of the spirit enriched the saints in times past and continue to do so today.  In the same way that we believe in living prophets, we believe that God works among men today just as he did in times past, that he is unchanged, the same yesterday, today, and forever, and as such these gifts which were enjoyed in biblical times can be enjoyed today as well.

These important gifts of the spirit, like other gifts from our Father, are given for a purpose, for the edification of man.

Among these, and more unique to Mormon doctrine, is the notion of continued revelation (a discussion of which you can find here and here, in discussing the two prior articles of faith). 

I can think of few other principles that are more endearing to my heart than the simple notion that there is a kind and loving, eternal Father in Heaven who will speak directly to me, as his son, at times when I am in need, as I so often am.

Mathew (7:8-11) recorded these beautiful words…  “What man is there of you whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?”  But rather “…ask and it shall be given you”.

We find the same refreshing doctrine taught in James 1:5 “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally”.

The promise of personal revelation is vital to our lives as we struggle to discern between truth and error, between right and wrong.  How comforting it is to know that I am not alone in these decisions, that divine guidance can be mine… given directly to me.  How often I fear we take for granted the simple phrase “ask and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be opened unto you”.

I’m convinced that the more we involve God in our personal lives, the more rich our lives will be, and the more abundant shall the spirit (and its gifts) be with us.

On a grander scale, how urgent and important ongoing revelation is to the Christ’s church on earth.  He has said “Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 2:9-14).  Left to our own carnal devices, man is constantly in error.  Entropy of truth is unavoidable without the staying hand of ongoing revelation to those who are in authority, such as prophets, apostles, etc.

Christ taught his disciples that “upon this rock will I build my church”, speaking of revelation (Matthew 16:16-18), and such it is so, the same in times of old as it is today.

Therefore how important it is that we give strict heed to the counsel of the prophet, seeking in all things to confirm that which is right through our own personal revelation.

Rusty

See also Part 1Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7

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{ 22 comments… read them below or add one }

1 Pondering Pastor May 21, 2008 at 6:26 PM

Not much I’ll comment on with this post. (I’ve done my share today!)

We believe that God works among men and women for the edification of humanity (men and women).

You’ve mentioned the unique interpretation Mormons have of Matthew 16, and how it is not Peter who is the focus of the passage but rather “revelation”. Many Christians will “split the difference” and point to the confession of faith as the foundation of the church. Not a very far stretch.

Pondering Pastor

Reply

2 MartyH May 22, 2008 at 8:18 AM

Rusty,

“upon this rock will I build my church”

What isn’t argued is HIS declaration: “I will build my church”. In Job, we read:

1. Then Job answered the LORD and said:

2. I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.

So, in some measure Rusty, you imply that the sinfulness of man kept Him from building His Church. Isn’t building the Church the very reason he came here to do? So why do you make God weak, to prove your own foolishness?

From Rusty:

I was hoping my alterior motive would remain secret… thanks for spoiling it, now everybody knows my real intent! Maybe you’re just trying to rile me up, hoping I’ll stumble in my anger or something.

Still, in spite of the tone, your question deserves answering.

God is not weak, he is omnipotent, but he also has chosen to make men free, free to act for themselves; free to choose good or evil, and if they choose evil, to suffer the consequences thereof. Allowing His sons and daughters to be held accountable for the results of their actions shows not weakness, but immeasurable strength.

In the following scriptures that talk about this apostasy, the falling away, ask yourself the same question… Did this happen because God was weak, and could do nothing to prevent it? Or rather are we seeing the results of the works of wickedness among men as the people slowly turn away from God?

2 Thessalonians 2:3 “Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first…”

Jeremiah 12:10-17 “Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot,”

Jeremiah 23:1-4 “Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! Saith the Lord.”

Mathew 15:9 “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

Acts 20:29-30 “Know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”

Amos 8:11-12 “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, not a thirst for water, but of hearing the word of the lord; and they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east; they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.”

Isaiah 24:4 “The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth.”

Matthew 21:41-46 “Therefore I say unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruit thereof.”

2 Peter 2:1-3 “There shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies; even denying the Lord that brought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of”

Isaiah 24:5 “the earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.”

1 Corinthians 1:11-13 “There are contentions among you. That every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Aplos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ, is Christ divided?

Isaiah 60:2 “For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people…”

2nd Timothy 4:3-4 “The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned into fables.”

2 Timothy 3:12-13 “All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Revelation 13:4, 7 “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them”

1 Timothy 1:6-7 “Some having swerved, have turned aside unto vain jangling, desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say or whereof they affirm.”

Reply

3 MartyH May 22, 2008 at 7:57 PM

Rusty,

Absolutely I had no intent in making you angry, just the opposite. Rusty, I also ask that you do not belittle me or my questions as they are asked with sincerity.

My question wasn’t whether men had sinned, or if they could fall away from the truth, or if there are enemies of the gospel. I think you are willdly whacking away and quoting Scripture to prove that point.

Again, I’m asking if man’s sinfulness can thwart the plans of God. You have claimed that Christ ceased building His Church because of the “great apostasy” until a complete restoration was given to Joseph Smith. Please note your comments”

“When Christ was crucified, there began a great apostasy, where truth diminished, the gospel became polluted with the teachings man, and the rights of the priesthood were removed from the earth, for those who held it were killed, or died. Because of that great falling away, it became crucial for a complete restoration, not only of truth, but of authority, for the work of God must continue today as it did in Christ’s time.”

Did Pharaoh or his magicians stop Him from leading His chosen out of Egypt? If His will is “I will build my Church”, then please tell me where He went wrong?

Profoundly put (and sorry, I mistook your calling me foolish for derision).

What I meant to illustrate by that barrage of scriptures, was that each of these references show how wickedness can indeed thwart the progress of the work of God. I wouldn’t say it stops the “plans” of God, for He is all knowing and all powerful, but because of his respect for free agency, and because of the law of justice, he allows there to be consequences for our actions, one of those being that we push him away.

Look at it on an individual scale. It’s not God’s will that a man will reject him. He wants all men to believe in him. But still, some do not. Does that constitute a failure for God? Does it somehow show that he’s powerless, or incapable? Certainly not. But he has chosen to give men free agency, and as such, we must be accountable for our actions.

This is a small scale, where one person rejects god, or chooses to push him out of their lives. The apostasy was simply this, but on a grand scale. Still, it doesn’t constitute failure, but represents his divine devotion to our freedom.

In short, the choices of man can thwart the progress of the Lords work, at the very least in their own lives (and when magnified over many souls, the effect is compounded exponentially). But is that thwarting his plan or does it suggest that at some point he went wrong? I’d suggest no. I’d suggest that due to the omniscience of God, all of that is part of his plan. The single scripture below (taken from my previous whacking) illustrates this…

Amos 8:11-12 “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, not a thirst for water, but of hearing the word of the lord; and they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east; they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.”

I don’t think you could say that god wants to hide the word of the Lord, but he says that he will send the famine. In other words, it seems to be all a part of his great plan, that there should be “a falling away first” (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

Reply

4 abritdifferent May 23, 2008 at 9:19 AM

It’s nice to see a positive slant on the LDS Church for a change on WP. Your first commenter comes to mind as an instigator. It never ceases to amaze me how MANY out there try and defame the Church with their half-truth slanders and pickings. I am always especially shocked that the majority are “men of the cloth”. It’s so unChrist-like. Jesus took His message to everyone, even those the Jews didn’t associate with through tradition.

Thanks for your post, I enjoyed it.

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5 unnikuttan May 23, 2008 at 9:28 AM

We all believe in a loving God. 😉

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6 Jeffery May 23, 2008 at 10:18 AM

abritdiffernet says: “Jesus took His message to everyone, even those the Jews didn’t associate with through tradition” .

I say Jesus wasn’t all that joyous towards them who proclaimed a false message. Let’s here it again!

“What we have told you in the past I am now telling you again: If anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that person be condemned!”

His message does not say that we should be nicey – nicey to those that destroy his Gospel! We are not loving someone if we avoid proclaiming error to our brothers.

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7 Rusty Lindquist May 23, 2008 at 3:02 PM

As I look at the life of the savior, he didn’t go around persecuting people though for their beliefs, it was the other way around. He was open and honest in saying that their doctrines were incorrect, but he didn’t persecute them, or seek out debates or opportunities for refutation. Instead, he simply set about teaching his gospel, and when others came to oppose him, he was honest with them. Strikingly similar to this blog, and others about Mormonism.

I think that’s the point that “abritdifferent” is making. I too find it fascinating how as you browse other religions blogs, or public sermons, you don’t find many Mormons (I’ve never found a single one) there seeking to refute them. Conversely, as you browse public forums discussing Mormonism, they’re full of opposition rising up against them.

Even my friend the Pondering Pastor, who just happens to be one of the most accepting of religious leaders I’ve met (if you see his comment about how he views other Christian sects over on the 5th post), mentioned that as soon as he found my blog talking about Mormonism, said he felt compelled to refute it.

I’ve always found it an interesting scenario. Perhaps I’m being naive or seeing what I want to see, but I can’t help but draw the parallel to the life of Christ I mentioned earlier. It seems that wherever there is the most risk to the adversary, or the most promise of righteousness and truth, there too will be the fiercest opposition.

The Mormon Church has been persecuted with tremendous and sustained efforts ever since its infancy. It began with Joseph Smith. Think of how strange it is that a simple 14 year old farm boy with practically no formal education, essentially a “nobody” in the eyes of the world, suddenly claims to have had a vision and immediately he becomes the target of such great and tireless persecution. Why would that be the case if there weren’t some strong force, led by the adversary of righteousness, who really, really, really didn’t want anything to come from it?

Then he says he has found a record, and is translating it, and he starts a little church, with just a handful of people. A truly insubstantial presence by all worldly means. And suddenly whole communities rise up against them, tar and feather their leaders, drive them from their homes, burn their houses, put some do death, and even have the very United States issue an extermination order for them. How many little religious groups have there been throughout time who unlike Mormons, actually believe in truly destructive practices, that are simply unnoticed and waved off. Yet Mormons teach faith, hope, charity and love, with an attention to good works, but are fiercely combated on every front.

And the apparent gall of Joseph Smith, under such conditions, to make the statement that this church would be like a stone cut without hands, that rolls forth and shall fill the whole earth. But he was a prophet of God, and it was prophecy (prophecy often sounds ridiculous to those unprepared for it). And here we are today, teaching the gospel to nearly every nation, kindred, tounge, and people, with Latter Day Saints found literally throughout the earth, with some 13 million members, and almost 53,000 missionaries speaking hundreds of different languages, fulfilling his prophecy against all odds. Who’d have thought it possible, other than the prophet, so long ago.

All of this in spite of the best efforts of the adversary to thwart that work. Even down to a simple guy like me. I’m just a guy who got tired of all the garbage on the internet from people saying what Mormons believe, but who actually have no idea. So, I do a blog post entitled “What do Mormons really believe”. Should I have been even remotely surprised that the very first reply I got, not second, or third, but the very first reply was from an actual pastor of another religion saying “Mormons aren’t Christian”, and that we’ve been “misled”?

Fortunately, I wasn’t surprised, and I haven’t once minded any of the open discussion we’ve had (which since that time has been very enjoyable). But in the face of such adversity I don’t lose hope, I don’t get discouraged, I don’t wonder about my ability to answer questions. For truth is Mormonism, God is the author of it, he is my shield.

I believe Joseph Smith said it best when he said “The standard of truth has been erected. No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing, persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, swept every country, visited every clime, and sounded in every ear. Till the purpose of the Lord shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say ‘the work is done’”.

He said that hundreds of years ago, when there was just a handful of people who believed in him. I say it today, hundreds of years later, on my little insignificant blog, as I watch in respect and wonder at the literal fulfillment of his very words.

Rusty

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8 Jeffery May 23, 2008 at 6:47 PM

Rusty,

We understand your passion for Mormonism. We also understand how a Jehovah’s Witnesses can be convinced of their truth, and so on and so on. I think you will find in church history many heritics and their followers pursecuted. Just because a heritic is a target for persecution doesn’t set apart that believe as truth. Neither does their numbers or growth in membership.

LOL, I was wondering if my passion was a bit apparent in that comment. heheh. Thanks for humoring me. Certainly, each of these in isolation are nothing but brush strokes, and it’s not till you step back and see things in their entirety does the picture begin to take shape.

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9 MartyH May 23, 2008 at 10:14 PM

Hi Rusty, Haven’t had time to reply to your last post. I see that you had an emotional revival without me. I do want to get back to this “falling away”part. I knew that you would state it was all in the design of “God’s plan”. Only because you have nothing biblical to back up your claim. Surely Amos prophesied “the end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.” Like many other prophets who had announced the coming of a Savior, it was
God’s will fulfilled.

“But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction,”

“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

When you claim as you do “God’s plan” then could you please show me the prophesy of the falling away and the complete restoration?

From Rusty:

Yeah, I couldn’t help myself. Besides, it bore mentioning.

“…then could you please show men the prophesy of the falling away” 2 Thessalonians 2:3 “Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first…” But I’ve already presented the scripture before you. You dismissed it as “whacking away at scripture”, perhaps you should read them. If you have a question on one of them, let me know.

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10 Jeffery May 23, 2008 at 10:40 PM

Rusty’s Jesus………

“As I look at the life of the savior, he didn’t go around persecuting people though for their beliefs, it was the other way around. He was open and honest in saying that their doctrines were incorrect, but he didn’t persecute them, or seek out debates or opportunities for refutation”

The Real Jesus……

“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in”

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.

Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

From Rusty:

Indeed, he spoke strongly. I never implied that he wasn’t one to mince words when the necessity arose, but my point remains the same. Are you saying that as you look at those that persecuted the Savior, and the way he dealt with his opponents, that you can see no difference? It was that difference to which I referred, however you’d like it described, my point is the same. I don’t see many Mormons actively persuing opportunities to refute others, it’s interesting however that others are so intensely determined to refute Mormons. The same thing happened with Christ.

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11 Jeffery May 24, 2008 at 1:25 PM

Joseph Smith is no longer running for President of the United States as he did in 1944. It’s OK to denounce your enemy. It’s no longer an election year.

I’m going to vote for Obama, because he’s more Christ like, he is the target of attacks, and his faith and church is being scrutinized.

Now let’s get to Christ. I’m pretty sure that he was so confrontational that they ended up executing him.

Ok, do as you will. But you may consider a quote by Theodore Roosevelt that I’ve long enjoyed.

“It is not the critic who counts, not the one who points out how the strong man stumbles, or how the doer of deeds might have done them better. No, the credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat, and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again… Who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

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12 MartyH May 24, 2008 at 1:58 PM

Rusty – Ok we can start with Thessalonians 2:3

‘Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.”

What Day? – Thessalonians 2:1

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

“whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming”

What are we to do? 2 Thessalonians 15

Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

Rusty, how does this Chapter have anything to do with the restoration given to Joseph Smith? Doesn’t it deal with the second coming, the antichrist, and the end times?

From Rusty:

Sometimes the truth is before you and you see it not. Yes, it does have to do with the second coming. You asked me to show you scripture that talks about the apostacy, and here it is.

First, in chapter 1 we learn that they’re talking about the second coming of Christ, which has still not yet happened. They thank the saints for their faith and charity, in spite of the persecutions of the wicked (ahem ;-), and tell them that God shall recompense tribulation back to “them that trouble you”.

Then 7: “And to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels”. As you said, the second coming.

Then 8 and 9 (2 more difficult verses for you to explain about works not mattering): “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not god, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”

Now over in chapter 2 “that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand (we use the King James version of the Bible, so here our words are slightly different).

“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first,”

You asked for scripture that references the apostasy, or falling away, I give it to you, and you read it and say “what does this have to do with anything”. I cannot make you understand, all I can do is explain the scriptures to you, and point you in the right direction. The rest, my friend, is up to you.

Because of this apostasy, the doctrines taught among men about the gospel became polluted. Corrupt (and convenient) notions, like “don’t worry about your works, you’ll be saved regardless how you behave” came to pollute the minds of man (even in spite of scripture). Even the understanding of the very nature of the Godhead became polluted. Heck, one of the reasons they had the whole Nicene meetings was to somehow reconcile the clear notion of three gods in the New Testament with the one God spoken of in the Old Testament. It’s no secret. So men had a meeting, decided what they thought was best, realized that what mattered to them was not clarity gained by the New Testament on the nature of the Godhead, but to try to maintain their monotheistic belief. The scriptures became diluted as well, as man, seeking to justify the convenient beliefs they’d come to adore, began to change words in translations.

In short, while pieces of truth remained, the gospel was not had in its fullness, and before the second coming of the Lord, that fullness needed to be restored to the earth.
Again, I can’t make you understand, but I hope that in clarifying this, you might be able to.

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13 MartyH May 24, 2008 at 6:20 PM

Ok Then – I’ll go to Matthew 21:41-46 – That one just pops right at me.

“Therefore I say unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruit thereof.”

Who was Jesus speaking to? Who is the “you” – Go back to Matthew 21:23 – “And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?”

We see it was the chief priests and elders. So lets move on with verse 45

“And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.”

From Rusty:

I’m both stunned and disappointed at how poorly you understand the scriptures, it’s like you’re reading them, and not comprehending.

Of course he was speaking of them; it is they from whom the kingdom of God shall be taken. Read the parable. The parable talks about the Lord of the vineyard, how he had entrusted a winepress to some husbandmen. But when he sent his servants, they stoned and killed them. So he sent his son, and they did likewise.

The meaning is that God entrusted the people of that place and time with the truth of the gospel, he sent prophets (his servants), and they stoned and killed them. So then he sent his Son, and they did likewise. And what was the result? That the Kingdom of God was taken from them… again, the apostasy. The church of God among man was removed, and given to a nation bringing forth better fruits – or in otherwords, it was taken, and restored… apostasy, and restoration.

You keep asking for scriptures to tell you these things, but when I give them to you, you don’t study and pray and seek to understand them. They’re so clear. How much more clear can it be than “it shall be taken from you, and given to someone else”, is that not what constitutes a restoration? Something is taken, and then restored? Please, if you’re going to insult me, call me a coward for not responding immediately, and bask in your pretended glory for confounding me with scripture, at least understand what scriptures you’re talking about. These are all so easy.

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14 MartyH May 24, 2008 at 6:56 PM

So you see Rusty, we examine all things, whether they be truth or false, by the use of scripture. We do not rely upon feelings, my Dad told me so, I was taught that way in Sunday School, I was raised that way, my spirit said it was so, my church is persecuted, my church is growing, my church has 12 million members, It was a revelation, It was a dream, It was a vision, and so on and so on.

I’m going to rest now until you give me a verse in context of the word, that stands out and screams your truth.

From Rusty:

That’s all? You do a superficial (and misinterpreted) “study” of two of those verses and not only come out with the wrong conclusions, but throw up your hands in victory?

Indeed, we do examine all things by scripture, it’s just that we must examine them fully. But unfortunately you’re incorrect in your dismissing or underestimating the power of your feelings. For the Holy Spirit worketh upon the heart. He testifies of truth. If the strength of your testimony is limited to your comprehension of scripture, then your foundation will always be only as strong as man may make it. For as soon as a scripture comes along that doesn’t match your view, or once someone explains to you what the scriptures you’ve so long misnunderstood actually mean, then your foundation is shaken.

But when your testimony is founded upon a confirmation from the Holy Ghost, then your foundation is built up on Christ, not the limited capacity of the mind of man.

Perhaps after your rest, you should study and pray, there are a number of additional references I’ve already provided you that you need to study. Good luck.

FYI – I’ve edited your posts above and put you on moderation, which means I’ll have to approve your comments before they’re posted. I’ve warned you before and been patient through your trite remarks. You seem to have forgotten the purpose for this blog, which I’ve described before. I don’t mind questions, any questions, but under the conditions I’ve already explained to you. I value my other readers to much to let this be a venue for your pention for persecuting Mormons.

In future comments, should you choose to make them, I’ll activate them based on their genuine desire to seek clarity. The comments above qualify in intent, but not in execution, so you’ll need to phrase them more carefully if you’d like your voice on the public discussion of these points.

Rest well.

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15 Jeffery May 24, 2008 at 9:56 PM

The Qur’an is a compilation of the “Divine Revelations” that were received by Prophet Muhammad, over a period of 23 years, through the arch angel Gabriel. The Prophet used to recite whatever he used to hear. His companions used to write down whatever he recited.

God declares through Prophet Isaiah;

Isaiah Chapter 42, Verses 9-12.

“Behold, the former things are come to pass, and the new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. `Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth’. Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voices, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory unto the Lord, and declare His praise in the inlands.”

God did reveal in the Land of Kedar, through prophet Muhammad – a direct descendant of Kedar, a “New Song” – The Qur’an. Nearly 1.2 billion Muslims, residing all over the world, recite this “new song” and Glorify Allah, in their daily prayers, five times in a day. The initial Revelation came to prophet Muhammad in a cave of Mount Hira near the city of Mecca.

Sound familiar?

Not remotely, but that’s okay, the Bible tells us that many shall arise and lead away the very elect (sound familiar – hint Mathew 24:24) Each man must determine for himself whom he will follow.

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16 MartyH May 25, 2008 at 8:33 AM

OK Rusty, thats fine, but if you could have shown me the truth of Mormonism from Scripture, then I would have no other choice than to abate.

Now you have silenced my tongue only because of challenge you could not overcome, and then labeled me a persecutor.

I asked you turn away from your deception and seek truth only from the Bible, unfiltered through the lens of the LDS church. Look above Rusty , 1.2 billion people practice Islam. How do you know that your not another unbeliever. Examine yourself, whether you be in the faith! Toss off all your prior learnings and stay bound only to the Word of God found in the Bible. If the Word had trained Timothy to be “wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Then that my friend is enough.

I’m not sure you would… abate that is, I hope for your sake you are that kind of person.

And I have not “silenced your tounge” (how dramatic we are), for have I not approved each of your succeeding posts in spite of their destructive intent?

If the Bible were the only word of God, I’d be happy to oblige. But I know that it’s not. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Just because he spoke to those at and around Jarusalem, and called prophets, and they recorded His teachings bringing us the bible, doesn’t mean that he couldn’t, or didn’t do the same elsewhere. “For other sheep have I that are not of this fold, them also must I bring, and there shall be one fold, and one shepard.” These other places that the Lord visited, these other sheep, must have followed the same template he gave his prophets in the Bible, and recorded His ministry among them, and his teachings. The Book of Mormon is simply the record of his teachings on the American Contentent. Gods lips aren’t sealed. Simply because he spoke once, doesn’t mean he can’t speak again? Simply because he visited one people, doesn’t mean he can’t visit other people, and teach them as well. Indeed, the more scripture we have the better we understand. Would our understanding of the Gospel be as rich as it is today if all we had was the Old Testament? Didn’t the New Testament add so much clarity of doctrine? How much more then from yet another source. “For out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established”. But, I’m getting ahead of myself, an open cannon is my next post on this series.

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17 Margaret May 25, 2008 at 1:15 PM

But then, MartyH, we wouldn’t have the fullness of the Gospel and all the other blessings we’ve been given.

Your posts read much more like lambasting than questions or discussion. Rusty stated his purpose. Please be respectful and abide by it.

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18 Margaret May 25, 2008 at 1:31 PM

One more thing. It’s Memorial Day weekend and, if you remember-Rusty has a beautiful family, a wife and 6 kids. I’m sure he’ll get to your questions. His family comes first. Have a little patience.

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19 MartyH May 25, 2008 at 8:49 PM

Margaret, I am sorry my questions seem like lambasting to some readers. I am sure other readers may find them appropriate. However I will try to respect Rusty’s rules.

But my experience has been with Mormon’s when they are challenged to justify there doctrine from the Word of God they hide in their shell like a turtle and proclaim persecution. So there you are Margaret, Rusty’s behavior seems cowardly.

I will be patient as well. Rusty when your ready, please show me in the Word of God where it is I can find the prophecy of the “great fall away” and the restoration given to Joseph Smith. This time instead of giving me verses that I have to learn and refute with no value in proving your theory, I ask that you find one verse and spend a few paragraphs or more explaining as how they prove your belief.

From Rusty:

Unfortunately, I’m not going to hold your hand. You won’t gain a testimony, nor clarity of understanding unless you invest a little yourself. I’m not sorry that I’ve given you verses that you’ve “had to learn”, perhaps you should see the value in learning them, rather than complaining about not being spoon fed the word of God.

I’m confused at you Marty. Earlier you said “we examine all things, whether they be truth or false, by the use of scripture”, and then in the next breath you’re complaining about having to learn new scriptures. You say “Show me where to find prophecy of the great falling away and the restoration”, but when I do, you say I’m “whacking away at scripture”, and don’t go do your homework to read and understand. You claim in an earlier comment that we should not believe something just because we were taught that way, or raised that way, but by scripture. But if you haven’t read these scriptures (for I’m making you learn them), whereon are your beliefs founded?

What all of this tells me, is that you’re not serious about learning the gospel. You’re not here to understand, you’re not here to seek, and you’re lazy.

Unfortunately, I’ve got other topics I’m anxious to get on to, and that are important to cover. But I’m continuously unable to get to them, because the precious little time I have I spend giving you scriptures that you gripe about having to learn. In short, it’s time I move on. I cannot help you, until you’re willing to be helped, and invested in learning.

So, because I am moderating your comments, I’ll be very selective now about what I let through. If it fits within the guidelines I’ve already explained to you, then I’ll allow it, if it doesn’t, if it’s simply repetative, or argumentative, or destructive, don’t bother, because I won’t let it through.

I wish you the best.

Rusty

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20 mary.4.him May 28, 2008 at 7:45 AM

Didn’t Brigham Young did teach that Adam was Heavenly Father, the Father of men’s spirits as well as the Father of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Was Brigham an inspired Prophet of God? How are we trust revelation given to the Prophet. Wasn’t Joseph Smith a Prophet? What’s with his teaching allowing polygamy?

Has the Church from the time of the Apostles ever taught such heresy? Yet you hold to the doctrine of lies in the face of clear and compelling evidence that the LDS Church has failed to uphold truth within it’s own walls.

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22 Mary4Him September 22, 2009 at 5:34 PM

D&C 43: 1-7 seems to utterly destroy the idea that Joseph Smith had a successor, other than possibly one of his sons. Consider verses 3-7:

“And this ye shall know assuredly –— that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me. But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead. And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments; and this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me. For verily I say unto you, that he that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before, to teach those revelations which you have received and shall receive through him whom I have appointed.”

Note especially this phrase: “none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him.” This passage seems to command us to disregard all commandments and revelations given by anyone not explicitly ordained by Joseph Smith to give commandments and revelations. Most of Smith’s succession claimants based their argument in some instruction or ordination given by Smith, but really only his son, Joseph Smith III, claimed to have been ordained and appointed in this way by his father. The other arguments, based on position in the First Presidency (Rigdon), assignment to establish Zion in Texas (Wight), angelic ordination combined with letter of assignment (Strang), position in the Quorum of the Twelve combined with temple ordinances (Young), etc., are all poor fits for this requirement.

One might work around this based on the phrase, “until he be taken,” although I’m not entirely sure whether this works. On the one hand, the grammar of the D&C is often confusing, and it could be the case that the sentence beginning with “But verily, verily, I say…” has an implied qualification limiting its applicability to the period up to Smith’s death. Yet that opening phrase is so sweeping and emphatic that it seems to me as if the text is pointing away from this possibility and requiring Smith to appoint and ordain his successor, whether Smith’s departure from office is due to death or to apostasy.

So, if this was God’s commandment, have we ever had a real prophet besides Joseph Smith. The more I study the scripture, the more I question the authority of the faith.

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