Ask a Mormon
As I posted here “Researching Mormonism – a Lutheran Bishop’s advice“, Krister Stendahl gives us three rules for examining another religion. The first and foremost rule is that when you are trying to understand another religion, you should ask the adherents of that religion, and not its enemies.
His words inspired me to create this page – allowing you to ask me any question you might, so that you can hear an answer directly from a Mormon.
As you’ll see by the disclaimer at the top of my blog, everything I say is simply my opinion and interpretation of doctrine, for official doctrine you can visit www.lds.org. But, I will give you my honest opinions, and I will base them on scripture and doctrine to the best of my ability.
If I don’t know the answer to your question, then I’ll endeavor to get you an answer.
All you have to do is type in your question in the comments below. I don’t moderate them. If the question seems genuine, I’ll answer it in a dedicated post. If it’s not genuine, or if your purpose seems to simply be to argue, disrupt, or be disrespectful, don’t bother – I’ll delete it and move on.
But if you’re someone who genuinely wants to know what Mormons believe about something, just ask.
Rusty
P.S. – Because I can’t get to every qeustion immediately (I’ve got 6 kids, after all 
, I will notify you by email once I answer your question on the blog. Thanks for participating, I’m sure this will be fun.
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…Marcus asks 58 questions.
Rusty, from most of the Mormons I’ve ever had a chance to talk to, they usually tell me that their greatest evidence that the Church is true is a witness from the Holy Spirit. Is that something that you also would say?
If so (or even if not, I’d like your perspective), how would you counter the argument that people of other denominations (say Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, etc…, for example) might also say that the Spirit witnessed to them that their church was true, and the LDS church isn’t?
Thanks.
What do you think of the book Under the Banner of Heaven by John Krakauer? I find it to be a wonderful and moving history of the early LDS church and the persecution that followers faced. Most mormons find the book offensive, subjective, and false.
The problem is that along with the history, several outlying extremist sects that are not associated with or recognized by the LDS church are examined. From my viewpoint, the book is quite objective in stating this. I was wondering if you’ve read it, and what you think.
Rusty, are the two teachings below in conflict.
Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt taught, “We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father, and so one, from one generation to generation”
Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Hi Rusty,
I was wondering unofficially what you felt about the Kinderhook plates. I would say, not to discredit your opinion, that a trap was set to catch a fox and a fox it did catch.
Rusty,
That article seems to address more the basis for a Mormon’s testimony, and whether it’s possible to have a witness from the Holy Spirit. My question leaned towards the fact that different people would say that the Spirit has “witnessed” entirely different and opposite things to them, and how you would respond to that.
Look forward to your answer.
Thanks.
While Rusty’s out, I want to venture forth an opinion on Brad’s question about how the Holy Ghost can witness to one person that Mormonism is true and to another that Presbetyrianism is true. Here is my attempt at an answer. Then we can both wait for Rusty’s reply.
The Holy Spirit witnesses truth. When a true principle is being taught, the spirit is likely to be there confirming it. Truth can be found in many places. I read a poem from Kahlil Gibran’s “The Prophet” and the words ring true. Buddha’s teachings have truth in them and those reading them may have received a “witness.” You’ve likely heard of the theory of many paths up to the same mountain top. This is used to illustrate that one particular church doesn’t have exclusive rights to the truth.
I’m sure any member of a particular church believes that his or her church has the most truth, otherwise, they would change churches. I don’t doubt that the Holy Ghost can witness truth in a Lutheran Sunday School class, or Catholic Mass, or Baptist Bible study. All of these are leading you up the mountain. But from the Mormon’s perspective, these paths end before reaching the top. There comes a time when you seek further knowlege and that particular sect cannot satisfy your desire for enlightenment.
The Holy Spirit will not witness to you something untrue. But your interpretation of the witness might be flawed. For example, sensing that a doctrine found in a Buddhist text rings true, so you conclude that Christianity is unfounded.
I liked how Rusty described a witness of the Spirit–I think of it as remembering something long forgotten. In pre-Earth-life we knew the truth. Now our mortal bodies have veiled us from the truth. But when we feel a witness from the Holy Spirit, the veil thins and we “remember” the truth.
Ryan
Ryan, what you’re doing is assuming that truth means all roads lead up to the mountaintop. While there are “truths” found in many non-Biblical writings, they don’t all lead to salvation. 2+2=4. That is certainly true, but it has no bearing on salvation, does it? Water is wet. That is true, but again, no bearing on salvation. So just b/c other writings can be “true”, doesn’t mean they lead to salvation. I would think you would hopefully agree with that.
Here’s my point. Mormons believe the Spirit has witnessed to them that Mormonism is true. I have prayed to the Spirit to see if Mormonism is true, or if Christianity is true. I have received an answer from the Spirit that Mormonism is not true, but Christianity is. The Spirit has told me that the teachings of Mormonism will not lead to salvation, while the teachings of Christianity will.
This puts us in a conundrum. Purportedly, the Spirit has witnessed to 2 different people (a Mormon and a Christian), 2 completely different and opposite answers (yes and no, true and not true), about the same question (is Mormonism true?). As such, that really only leaves us with a couple possibilities. Either the Spirit is confused, and isn’t sure what to tell different people, or one of the people REALLY didn’t have a witness from THE true Holy Spirit, but was deceived. I doubt you would agree to the former (as I wouldn’t), so we must be left with the latter. In which case, we’re left with yet another dilemma – if 1 person really didn’t receive a witness from THE true Holy Spirit, how do we know which one? B/c at that point, you are not able to look to the Spirit for confirmation, b/c it is the confirmation of who received a correct witness that you’re trying to ascertain! See the problem it leaves you with…
Would still be curious to hear your, and Rusty’s, answer to that…
“In pre-Earth-life we knew the truth. Now our mortal bodies have veiled us from the truth. But when we feel a witness from the Holy Spirit, the veil thins and we “remember” the truth.”
These are exactly the feelings I had as I read the Book of Mormon the first time. It seemed familiar and it rang true. Then I had to pray to find out if it were true before I could decide to be baptized. It took hours, but I received a dramatic, undeniable witness from the Holy Ghost that it was true. From then until now, there is no doubt in my mind and soul.
Brad, I can’t judge your experience, only mine. We may never agree. I know I will never change my mind. The witness was too strong for that. I just hope that for you it will be someday, too.
May God bless you!
BTW, Ryan, you blog like a pro!
Margaret,
Only problem is, you didn’t even begin to answer the question asked. This is typically what happens when I ask the question. It gets talked around, but not answered. Your very post assumes that the witness YOU received is true.
My questions asks about differing witnesses. That has yet to be addressed, by nearly any Mormon I’ve ever talked to. Brushed off, yes. Addressed with a cogent argument, no.
Brad,
I doubt that I could come up with an answer that would satisfy you. We have opposite opinions. To me, the answer I received IS true. I am very comfortable where I am in my beliefs. If you feel the same about yours, then we have to agree to disagree. I’m confident that if there is an answer to your question, Rusty can find it. I am constantly amazed at his wisdom.
And Margaret, you illustrate perfectly exactly what I said in my post. I haven’t seen a Mormon who can, or is at least willing, to address it. They will usually talk around it, as Ryan has already done, or just ignore it, as you have done. Case in point.
Why is this? It’s not a terribly difficult question, but it does make you stop and think at the REAL reasons for WHY you believe something. Is that it? You say “to me, the answer I received IS true.” Fine. But I say the same thing about MY answer, and we each purport to have received the answer from the same place! Which brings us right back to where we started – how do we know which one of us is correct?
I don’t think I was skirting the issue at all. Brad, you and I agree that the Holy Spirit is not confused and giving conflicting evidence for truth. So the natural conclusion is that one of us is decieved.
I said the same thing but put it in a less abrasive context. Maybe the interpretation we make from the feelings we feel are off course.
I for one don’t pray for confirmation that other churches are wrong. The more I study the more I find out that we are more alike than different in many aspects of our beliefs.
In your case, you may be coming from an entirely different background and your misconceptions about “foreign” religions like Mormonism might make your interpretation of the holy spirit’s guidance off course. I’ll illustrate an extreme example to make my point. If you saw the movie, “Borat,” you see that the main character had gross misconceptions about Jews–imagining that they have horns on their heads, they can shape-shift into roaches, will steal money every chance they get. These misconceptions would taint the very nature of the question if Borat were to pray if Judaism were true.
Mormonism is Christianity. I don’t separate the two. I am a Christian, regardless of what others regard me as. The Holy Ghost can confirm the truth, usually with a peaceful, sound feeling that may be hard to interpret. If your misconceptions given you a black and white when the answer is more gray, you will be deceived.
In re-reading the entire dialogue, I think the simple answer in who is decieved is found in the Bible, From Christ HImself, on the Sermon on the mount. “Ye shall know them by their fruits.”
Granted, the religion is only as good as its people, and there are a few sour grapes in every bunch. But overall I am happy to be part of a church that produces honest men and women, willing to serve in their community, and being genuine good neighbors.
Another fruit of Mormonism is the Book of Mormon. After reading it with real intent to become a better person, I can say that it has brought me closer to God than any other book. This probably sounds like blashphemy to the Bible follower. I too consider the Bible to be the Word of God, but some of it’s hard reading, and there appear to be contradicitons. The Book of Mormon helps me to understand God’s will. Not by replacing the Bible, but by supplementing it. This is the very fruit I discovered that helped the Spirit whisper to me the truth of the Restored Gospel.
Amen, Ryan! Thank you.
Still no good, Ryan (and Margaret, who remains silent). Ryan, essentially what you’re saying is that I have it wrong, that I’ve brought pre-conceived notions to the table that are affecting my ability to properly interpret the witness of the Holy Spirit. Of course, the same could be said about you, so in all reality, we have to throw that out, as it is possible for both of us. Unless, of course, you would state that you truly bring absolutely no pre-conceived notions to the table. Of course, I could say the same as well, so it’s really back to square one (again, you see), where it’s a he said/she said argument.
You are inherently saying your witness is right, and mine is wrong, with the reasoning that I must be having something cloud my judgment. What’s your basis? That line of thinking inherently assumes that you’re correct already, albeit you gather that assumption from a subjective determination, that I can also (and do also) make. Again, square one.
Further, if you want to go the oft-quote-by-Mormons route of “by their fruits”, we can. I don’t know you, so can’t say anything about your fruits, but let’s assume you have many (as they relate to Mormonism), and you can safely assume that I have them as well (as they relate to Christianity – and yes, I do make a clear distinction between the two). If that’s the case, then you are inherently saying we’re BOTH right, b/c of our fruits. It’s tough for BOTH of us to be right, when we believe so differently about common items, Ryan. It’s actually impossible. 2+2 cannot equal both 4 and 5. It can only be one or the other.
You have set up a logical circle that is only valid within Mormonism, but outside of that, makes no sense at all. Margaret is willing to let you do her talking for her, which is fine.
How about this – what would you say if I told you the true Holy Spirit truly witnessed to me that 2+2=5, and not 4, like everyone thinks. What would you say?
I’d say I’d better go relearn math.
I must apologize for taking so long to get back to this… having a new baby in the home, with 5 other children has made my life a bit of a madhouse!
But this has been such a fascinating discussion. I have some thoughs I want to share… my attempt at an “answer”, if such it could be called. I’m working on an early bedtime (we’re all exhausted), and will attempt to post it tonight.
Brad, I hope that the answer I attempt to give feels as concrete as I think you’re hoping for. I certainly will address the issue head on, and see your point about how it seems any argument is so easily self-countered by equivalent statements from the other side. Although I think there’s wisdom in both Ryan and Margaret’s words that you might be overlooking. I’ll elaborate tonight (and no, it’s not a restatement of what has already been said).. Again, I sincerely apologize for the delay on such an important topic, but really look forward to the opportunity to share my thoughts, and hear your candid reply.
This will be an important conversation to have publicized and archived. Thank you to all who have contributed.
Rusty
So much for an early night. It’s now 2:00 in the morning. Still, I’ve attempted to answer your question, at least as best I can here “Whose answer is right?“.
I’ll likely move these comments over there after a while so they’re had in context of the answer.
I was wondering if you offered any kind of advertising?
thanks,
Michaella
how can we find out if a member of the familly who has died has been baptized morman…..chris
The best way I know is to go t your nearest Family History Center. If you’re not sure what that is, call the nearest chapel of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and ask where the nearest Family History Center is and the hours they are open. There are some wonderful people there who are trained to help people with questions. You don’t need to be a member to get help.
is there anyway someone can help us now on the computer it would be a big help….chris
Chris,
Are you looking b/c you’re worried they WERE baptized Mormon, or worried they WEREN’T?
Go to familysearch.org and try that. Good luck!
Brad, im am worred they were baptized mormen so what do i do? can you help………chris
Chris,
There is nothing you need to do. We do a lot of work for the dead by proxy, but it is only binding if the person for whom it was done wants it to be. Heavenly Father never takes away our agency, even after death. We get to choose the kind of afterlife we want, providing we are worthy of it. It is possible to find out if the work was done, but there is no need to “undo” it. So don’t worry. Hope that helps you.
Chris,
Depends on your point of view. I don’t know your religious beliefs, so I don’t know where you’re coming from. If you’re Mormon, I doubt you’d be worried they WERE baptized Mormon, so I assume you’re not Mormon. If you’re Christian, I can see why you’d be worried. Under Christian beliefs, once you’re dead, that’s it – there’s no more choices you can make, as your fate is sealed at that point. Thoughts such as purgatory, or an afterlife with agency (or free will, as it is commonly called), are not backed up by Scripture.
So, if you’re Christian, and worried that your family member died as a Mormon, then from a Christian point of view, there’s nothing left that can even be done. Death is final.
Of course, from a Mormon point of view, they don’t believe this, as Margaret clearly illustrates in her post above. They say they do work “by proxy” for the dead, but it’s only “binding” if the dead person “wants” it to be. Not sure exactly how a dead person can wish or want anything – THEY’RE DEAD. There’s no record in the Bible of any free will after death. In fact, if you look at the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, you have the exact opposite – a complete inability to effect a change in your eternity AFTER you’re dead, and no opportunity to come back and warn others, either.
I would agree that we can “choose” our eternity, in the sense that Heaven or hell is a choice that we make based upon whether we accept the true Christ or not, but it’s not based on our actions at all. If it were, nobody would make it to Heaven, as based on our actions, nobody would ever be good enough to go, compared to a holy and righteous God.
It’s a very nonchalant attitude that Mormons have towards hell, partly b/c they don’t think virtually anyone is destined to go there. It’s a nice thought, but it’s just not supported by the Bible, unfortunately.
While this may not comfort you as to your family member, Chris, depending on your beliefs and circumstances, you at least do have the opportunity now to ensure that your personal relationship, and those of others you love, are correct with God.
Our spirits are eternal, and so are the blessings of free will. I’m not quite sure how one could believe that suddenly after death we suddenly are now incapable of making decisions, and choosing. Baptism for the dead (which is also found in the bible 1 cor. 15:29 is done because those who have died still have the ability to choose, to make decisions. The gift of free agency is an eternal one. Once we’re resurrected, we won’t become puppets on strings, incapable of making decisions and moving on our own, rather, we continue as independent beings, learning, growing, progressing, and choosing.
As for the misunderstanding you have of LDS view of hell, I’ll address that in a separate post. But thanks for commenting.
I’m not quite sure how one could believe that suddenly after death we suddenly are now incapable of making decisions, and choosing.
Maybe it’s the fact that we’re DEAD. What Biblical support do you have for us being able to make a decision to accept or reject Christ, AFTER we die? Would be curious to see that.
You COMPLETELY misinterpret 1 Cor. 15:29. If you would like to get into it, we can – just let me know.
Feel free to explain exactly WHO will end up in hell, and maybe more importantly, who you believe WON’T end up there. And please provide your Biblical basis – I’m not concerned about anything the “other 3″ works have to say, as I don’t lend them creedence, as they cannot be shown to be inspired by God. You can feel free to reference them, however I won’t argue any position from them.
Of course, still waiting on your rebuttal on the “whose answer is right” post, b/c there are still some basic acknowledgements of logic and reasoning that need to take place, that haven’t.
I would actually be interested to have you elaborate on your interpretation of 1 Corinthians. I’ll do a separate post on baptism for the dead, so we can properly segment that conversation.
I’ll also post separately on our ongoing capacity to choose, even after death. These conversations will be valuable, but longer lasting if there’s a post dedicated to it.
As for who will end up in hell. That too will have a dedicated post that I’m working on, called “Three degrees of Glory”.
I’ve been traveling at a conference, and am just now boarding the plane to head home, so I’ve been a bit busy, but once I get home I’ll return to some sort of normalcy again with my posting.
In regards to your further questions on “Whose answer is right”, I never approved them, so they’re not there. It was simply more of the same argument, and added no value. If you’d like to add value, and answer the question we’ve asked and been waiting patiently to hear, then I’d be happy to allow further discussion on the matter. Otherwise, there’s no use further poluting that post with more of the same.
I AM NOT HAPPY I RANG UP FAMILY HISTORY AND IF I AM NOT WITH THE CHURCH THEY WILL NOT TELL ME……CHRIS
Chris, can you tell me what it is that you’re worried about?
I AM WORRED ABOUT MY UNCEL HE PAST AWAY 3 WEEKS AGO AND MY SISTER IN LAW IS MORMAN AND WE THINK SHE MADE OUR UNCEL ONE HOW CAN WE FIND OUT……THATS VWHAT WE R WORRED ABUT……CHRIS
ALL I WANT TO NOW IS IF HE HAS BEEN BAPTIZED MORMEN….CHRIS
Chris, nobody but your uncle had the choice as to where he was going when he died. Nobody on earth could have decided that for him. As I mentioned before, now that he has passed away, there is no use thinking about it, b/c it is over – eternity has been decided for him. Try Hebrews 9:27, among others.
Best thing to do now is to ensure that the relationship you have with God is the proper one.
Chris,
I am sorry to hear about the passing of your uncle and wanted to address your concern. Even if your sister-in-law has done a baptism for the dead on behalf of your uncle in the last three weeks, the online records that are available to LDS members usually won’t reflect that information for several more weeks due to delayed technology. According to LDS church policy in regard to your uncle’s passing, THE closest living relative (i.e. wife, children, etc.) at this time would have to give permission for another person (family or not) to do a baptism on his behalf. This does not mean that it doesn’t happen. Out of respect for the deceased individual and their family members, as long as the closest living relative does not give permission for the baptism, the LDS church discourages any such act on the deceased’s behalf.
I am aware that you are not LDS but would like to reiterate our beliefs in regard to ordinances for the dead. “For the millions of people who lived before the Restoration of Christ’s Church, temple ordinances were not available during their lifetime. Even today, millions live and die without ever hearing the name of Jesus Christ or without accepting the gospel he taught. Provision must be made, then, for those who have died without that opportunity.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that all saving ordinances are to be performed on earth on behalf of the dead… All temple work is valid only if it is willingly accepted by each individual prior to the Resurrection.” (http://www.lds.org/temples/familyhistory/0,11267,1906-1,00.html)
This may not subdue your concerns, but I hope it gives you more information.
Chris,
Your uncle could not mave been baptized for the dead yet in a Temple. We always have to wait 1 year and 1 day after the death date before that ordinance can be performed.
If possible, it might be good for you to talk to your sister in law and tell her of your concerns. In any case, if your uncle does not want to accept that ordinance, he will have his wish.
Thanks for adding that information Margaret.
Chris,
This “baptism for the dead” concept in Mormonism comes from some gross misunderstandings and misinterpretations of Scripture. While I have told Rusty that I will refrain from being on here and discussing with him, I’ll write this for YOUR good, hopefully.
Scripture makes it clear that all men are without excuse (Romans 1), that we are all sinful (Romans 3), that there is a penalty for that sin (Romans 6), that only God’s grace can save us (Ephesians 2) and that if we accept that grace and have the Jesus of the Bible as Lord of our life, then we are assured of Heaven as our eternal destination (Romans 8, 1 Peter 1, and many others). No special ordinance is needed, or able, to save us, for there is nothing we can do apart from receiving God’s grace to merit salvation. This includes baptism.
If your uncle was not Mormon when he died, then he is most assuredly not Mormon now, for he has realized the truth of God’s existence and power. A “baptism for the dead” hasn’t changed that one bit, despite the claims of Mormonism, Chris.
I didn’t know your uncle, obviously, or his religious leanings. If he was a Christian who had accepted the Jesus Christ of the Bible as his Savior, then you can be assured that he is with God right now. If he didn’t, then you can be assured that he is not, and will never be. That fate has been decided, and was sealed at the moment he left this earth. There are no 2nd chances, nothing anyone or any religion can do after the fact. Read the story of the rich man and Lazarus in the Bible, for a great example Jesus gave on this very line of thinking.
Chris, please feel free to contact me offline from this blog if you wish to discuss further. I wish you well.
Chris, The mormons take this one verse and build a whole doctrine that is not biblical. It is similair to a Jehovah’s Witnesses’ refusal to recieve a blood transfusion.
In 1 Corinthians 15, there is a verse that says: “Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?”
Well, Paul is saying, “Why are people baptizing for the dead if there is no resurrection?” And we are saying, “What in the world does he mean by that?” Right? “What is the Baptism for the Dead?” It isn’t even important what he means–to us. People then knew what he meant. There was some pagan cult at that time that was doing Baptisms for the Dead, today it would be the Mormons. But, all Paul is trying to say is, he is trying to prove the validity of resurrection in general. In other words, the whole chapter is to prove that there is a resurrection, and all he is saying is, “Even the pagans understand that there is a resurrection, or else why would they be baptizing for the dead?” In other words, he is only using what we would call a natural argument rather than a supernatural one.
Like we say, for example, the old story of immortality that is told about the little blind boy that was sitting on the top of a hill and he had a kite, and the kite was pulling against the wind. Somebody said to him, “Can you see the kite?” He said, “Oh, no sir.” And then he said, “Well then how do you know that it is in the air?” “Well,” he said, “I feel the tug on the string that I hold in my hand.” The old adage was that’s the way it is with immortality–even pagan people feel the tug of immortality–that there is life after death. That is why Indians buried ponies with the dead braves. That’s why people in Greece put a coin in the mouth of the dead body, so that they could pay their fare across the Mystic River of Death. That’s why they put a canoe in a Pharaoh’s pyramid, so that he could go down the River of Life in his canoe. In other words, there is something in the human heart that longs for immortality, and Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 15, “If there is no resurrection, then why are these people baptizing for the dead? Even the pagans feel the pull of immortality.” And of course it [Baptizing for the Dead] was in error, and it still is with the Mormons that do it.
I think it’s best that you understand that God will not hold your uncle accountable to their pagan practices. If you need help with this we can put you in touch with someone in your area that can explain the biblical principals for death and the resurrection.
Brad, I invite you to answer the questions I’ve asked here (What about works), which lists all the scriptures in the bible that say we’ll be judged by our works. To say otherwise means that you must have a clear alternate explanation for each of these scriptures. If so, I’m anxious to hear them.
Additionally, I’m anxious to hear how you interpret 1 Corinthians 15:29: “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?”.
Why would there be baptism for the dead if baptism weren’t necessary? And why would there be baptism for the dead if the dead are unable to receive it?
Thanks in advance for any clarification you’re able to give to your viewpoint.
Brad, Sorry, I had posted the above interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15 before Rusty’s request for you to do likewise. I don’t think he had read it yet.
Martin,
I appreciate your response – it is exactly what I would have said to explain it. Well said.
Rusty,
As I mentioned, you like to moderate your blog too much to have only the comments you wish others to see. And you love to ask people to answer previous questions you’ve asked, all while being unwilling to continue to address questions YOU’VE been asked. There’s other blogs out there that have people willing to truly discuss on any terms, not just yours.
I feel sorry for Chris, which is the only reason I’ve kept an eye on it.
Brad, as I’ve mentioned, I only moderate those comments that are disrespectful, specifically anti-Mormon, or are simply argumentative. Look at your last post, did it add any value? You’re a detractor, and I’m only interested in builders and seekers. Is it a wonder why your comments are moderated? Don’t forget, you’ve said before that you’ll stop coming back. yet here we are again. You’re welcome to stay and discuss, but you’ll need to start playing by the above rules (they’re really not all that difficult), or you’re welcome to find some other playground.
Baptism for the dead
Martin, thanks for the comments about baptism for the dead. It certainly requires it’s own post.
In actuality, history is clear on the practice of Baptism for the dead. In fact, it was performed by the dominant church until forbidden by the sixth canon of the Council of Carthage in A.D. 397, but some smaller sects continued the practice nonetheless.
So it wasn’t until almost 400 years after Christ that the practice was banished by church councils, which is yet another example of the apostasy, or the eventual falling away of traditional Christianity from the original gospel and church of Christ.
There are lots of other historical records of early Christians (and others) practicing baptism for the dead, but I’ll save those for the full post. Suffice it to say that clearly this is a far cry from the overdramatization that Mormons somehow invented a whole ordinance from one verse of scripture.
Rather our ordinances come from latter day revelation to living prophets and apostles and are supported by scripture. Thus we see the clear and present need for a complete restoration of the gospel (including it’s lost ordinances and authority).
In any event, before you attack another’s religion and make claims such as this, it’s always advisable (and respectful) to do your due dilligence first.
Is Baptism Necessary?
In the meantime, and relating to the claim that baptism isn’t necessary, can you offer your interpretation of John 3:5:
“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
It would appear to me that there is action required on our behalf in order to enter into the kingdom of God.
Is death really the end of choice?
If there were no action possible after death, and aside from the scripture and early Christian practice of baptising for the dead as evidence that they still are yet able to choose, then why then would Christ preach to the dead? Perhaps you can offer your interpretation of John 5:25
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”
Thanks
You’re right, Rusty, I said I won’t be on here anymore, and I intend to honor that. As I mentioned, I was on here to hopefully talk to Chris, and have told him what I feel I needed to. I hope Chris takes the words to heart.
Essentially, Rusty, what you say is that you choose to moderate what runs contrary to your beliefs in an “anti-Mormon” fashion. That’s OK – as I mentioned, there are other Mormon sites that aren’t afraid of a running blog, which I’ll be happy to frequent.
I’ll close and move on by saying this, Rusty. I know you don’t believe it, but you’re lost. You are believing in a figment of Joseph Smith’s imagination, and following ideas and patterns that are not based in truth. Yes, I know you don’t believe that, but one day you will, Rusty, and as I said, if you wait until that day to find out, at that day it will be too late. I don’t like coming off that way, but for some people, it’s all you can say to them. I don’t want to have you look at me when that great Judgment Day comes, and ask me “why didn’t you tell me”, b/c I am right now, Rusty.
I wish you well.
Brad,
Hello again. You say that I moderate what runs contrary to my beliefs? Surely you jest. Either that or you haven’t read many of the comments on my blog posts. The majority of them are not Mormon opinion, but still I don’t moderate them because as long as they follow the rules I’ve already outlined several times now, they still add value and enhance discussion.
I’m sorry you’ve not yet gained a testimony of Joseph Smith, but I appreciate your apparent heart felt warning. Still, I know Joseph was a prophet of God. I know too much to deny that, and likewise welcome you to reconsider your judgement of him.
In the end, we’ll all be accountible for that which we’ve chosen to believe and do. May we all ensure that we’ve given adequate and prayerful consideration of Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so that we may stand guiltless before God at the last day.
Amen.
Brad, thank you for the concern. I guess we can all be happy now…
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